Going to church?

[KEV67]

Went to St Mary's in Castle Street today. The vicar made a distinction between social justice and real justice, and he had a go at the Catholics. Otherwise I cannot remember much about the sermon. Afterwards we had lunch to celebrate the coronation so I met some of the other members of the congregation. This included an elderly West Indian couple called Earl and Gwen, who cooked the dinner. I was sat next to John, who used to work with cruise liners, sales and marketing  I think. On the other side I was sat next to Giles. He was a farmer, believe it or not. I told him my Irish granny used to have a cattle farm. He said most the milk produced in Ireland goes into milk powder, which is an ingredient in a lot of processed foods. He said nearly all of Ireland's fresh milk comes from England. That did surprise me. He said Ireland's population was 3 million people so it was more economic to import the milk from England. He said there was a milk distribution in Reading that serves 12 million people. I was slightly surprised that he and his wife travelled to the church from near Wallingford, as that is 10-15 miles out into the countryside.

[KEV67]

I did not want to go to church today, but I did go the Unitarian meeting in the afternoon. Only three of us were there. The secretary, her father who is a preacher, and myself. The secretary reported back on an annual general meeting she had been to. I am slightly concerned about the common set of values they are drawing up. They may have no fixed theology, but their social values are universally woke. I missed the meeting last month hoping to avoid this discussion, but it looks like the discussion might happen next month when more people are back. 

[KEV67]

I went to a Quaker meeting this morning. I went into a room with a table in the middle. They were two or three rings of chairs around the table. People just sat in them in silence. After about 20 minutes an old bloke with mobility problems got up. He said he had met a woman at his sheltered accommodation, who had agreed to marry him. Then he told us how he used to be a coke-fiend, but gave it up with the help of the organisation Frank. He said he was an alcoholic, but gave that up too. He was addicted to gambling, which took longer to kick. He had three properties and a business employing a number of people; that all went. With the help of a friend and another self-help group he gave up gambling. A bit later a woman got up to say that although she did not believe much in God, Quakers should be respectful of those who do (What?). Then another woman, who was watching by Zoom, said when quizzed by her grandchildren on whether she believed in God, would ask them what were their terms of reference, and that her conception of God would be different to anyone else's at the meeting. Then another woman got up and said she was reminded of the mothers of the disappeared in Argentina, who were betrayed by the Catholic priests who reported the mothers to the authorities. The mothers started meeting in private and concluded that God was the love and support they gave each other. This was not one after another; there would be a gap of ten fifteen minutes. Afterwards I had a cup of coffee with Magda, Izzy, and another woman whose name I have forgotten. They seem a pretty brainy bunch. At least two of them were involved with the university.

 

I met one of the other parishioners of St Mary's Church of England (Continuing) at the Hop Leaf. It seems he is the pub historian my friend told me about.

[Madeleine]

I sadly went to a funeral of a friend who was a Quaker, a few years ago.  Beforehand the minister explained it was up to people to say what they wanted, and then we sat in silence for an hour or so, punctuated by people standing up with a memory or anecdote of the deceased.  Very different to the usual services which for some religions seem to follow a vaguely familiar pattern with tributes and maybe music.  I knew they had their services in silence as he'd once talked about it.  Certainly different, but obviously it works for some people, which is fair enough.

[KEV67]

Went to St Mary's on Castle Street in the evening. Only about four in the actual congregation plus the vicar, vicar's wife and organist. The hymns were more than unusually unsingable. I tried to concentrate on the sermon. The vicar mentioned Jonah and the whale, and Jacob wrestling with the angel. The main takeaway was that the afflicted were blessed if it brought them to prayer. Me and the vicar find it difficult to find things to say to eachother. After the service the vicar goes to the exit and speaks to all the congregation as they leave. He asked me if I had a good week and whether I went anywhere for work. I told him I went to Bristol and I hoped to go to Penzance soon. That is not strictly true, but I thought Penzance sounded more exotic than Plymouth.

[lunababymoonchild]

On 5/28/2023 at 12:55 PM, KEV67 said:

I went to a Quaker meeting this morning. I went into a room with a table in the middle. They were two or three rings of chairs around the table. People just sat in them in silence. After about 20 minutes an old bloke with mobility problems got up. He said he had met a woman at his sheltered accommodation, who had agreed to marry him. Then he told us how he used to be a coke-fiend, but gave it up with the help of the organisation Frank. He said he was an alcoholic, but gave that up too. He was addicted to gambling, which took longer to kick. He had three properties and a business employing a number of people; that all went. With the help of a friend and another self-help group he gave up gambling. A bit later a woman got up to say that although she did not believe much in God, Quakers should be respectful of those who do (What?). Then another woman, who was watching by Zoom, said when quizzed by her grandchildren on whether she believed in God, would ask them what were their terms of reference, and that her conception of God would be different to anyone else's at the meeting. Then another woman got up and said she was reminded of the mothers of the disappeared in Argentina, who were betrayed by the Catholic priests who reported the mothers to the authorities. The mothers started meeting in private and concluded that God was the love and support they gave each other. This was not one after another; there would be a gap of ten fifteen minutes. Afterwards I had a cup of coffee with Magda, Izzy, and another woman whose name I have forgotten. They seem a pretty brainy bunch. At least two of them were involved with the university.

 

I met one of the other parishioners of St Mary's Church of England (Continuing) at the Hop Leaf. It seems he is the pub historian my friend told me about.

As I understand it Quakers do this as part, if not all, of their practice.

[KEV67]

1 hour ago, lunababymoonchild said:

As I understand it Quakers do this as part, if not all, of their practice.

Yes, I think so. There is no priest, sermon or hymns. People sit in silence and every now and again someone gets up and says something.

[KEV67]

I intended to go the the Argyle Community Church this morning, which is an independent church, but it did not happen. I made it to the evening service at St Mary's Church.

One of the hymns seemed a bit like a folk song to me. I tried to sing it as such. I had trouble working out which key to sing the last hymn; not that I ever know which key I am singing in. If someone asked me to sing an 'A', I would have no idea. I started the first verse low, which got very low; so I started the next verse higher, which was still not very satisfactory, so I tried the last verse in a different key.

In his sermon, the vicar said the last king of southern Israel's sons were taken away to serve as eunuchs in the King of Babylon's palace. This was very depressing for the Jewish people, because it seemed to break a promise made by God. Elsewhere he said evolution contradicted Genesis, and later, that God existed outside time, and that according to physics, starlight is coming from stars that may no longer exist, but that the moon keeps waxing and waning, and the seasons keep passing.

On leaving he asked me whether I was enjoying the sunny weather. I said the midges kept biting me. He said that if you eat the right foods then the midges do not bite so much, but could not remember which foods they were, although he thought sugar was probably bad.

[KEV67]

Got to the Argyle Community Church, which is an independent evangelical church. It was well attended. There were a lot of Chinese in the congregation. Most the children were Chinese. The service reminded me of the Baptist services. There was no organ; instead there was a band comprising singer/guitarist, bass player, pianist and drummer. I did not need to bring my glasses because everything was projected on a screen. The hymns were modern, but the band were quite good. I was impressed by the charismatic singer/guitarist. Two members from a Christian charity Reach explained to us what they do, which is basically teach Christianity in schools. They showed some stats. I think one statistic was that only 4% of British children are brought up as Christians these days. I am not sure about that stat. Maybe that means only 4% of children go to a church. Then the children were led out and a tall man got up to deliver a sermon, which he did by taking prompts from his phone. I think his phone app was projected to the screen, because sometime he interacted with it. I struggle to remember what it was about. There was a long lapse photograph of the North Star with the tracks of other stars circling around it.  Although I cannot remember what the sermon was about, at least I got the impression these people believed in it, which I did not get with the Quakers.

 

In the afternoon I went to the monthly Unitarian meeting. There were about ten of us, including an old lady who looked very frail. The average age of Unitarians must be about 70. The preacher, named Peter, who is in his 80s, told a story from a book about a tramp in Antrim. This tramp had had stones thrown at him for looking at a cow funny. I think it might have been some superstitious thing. The mother of the boy who later wrote the incident down cleaned the tramp's injuries, gave him something to eat and drink, and let him sleep in the pigsty. The next morning the entire community, including the toughs, came around and shook his hand and wished him well. The boy's mother had spread the story he was an itinerant beggar on the quest for the Holy Grail, but was recording everything that happened to him. That was quite entertaining. Then we had to discuss a list of values someone had suggested be associated with the church. Personally I was a bit concerned about this, because I do not want to sign myself to a church of wokery, especially since they have no fixed creed or theology. However, most the values listed were such that it was difficult to object to them. They were quite gentle values.

 

Going to the church for bigots a bit later. I already walked past the vicar this afternoon, and I told him I'd be there, so I can't back out, although it is thundering and lightning right now...

 

The rainstorm gave the vicar something to ask me about. The sermon started off about Job and his friends. I have heard of Job's Comforters but I am not sure what is meant by that. Then the sermon meandered rather, as it often does. To be fair, writing a half-hour sermon takes a lot of effort I imagine. I once prepared a lecture on heat transfer, which is quite a large subject, and still ran out of material. I often wondered why the clergy considered it important to go to university in the 19th Century to learn Latin and Greek. I think it was practice in writing long essays from ancient texts on some subject. A slightly embarrassing thing happened. I switched my phone off because I was worried someone would call me, but instead I only rebooted it, so it said "Hello Moto" in. Korean accent.

Edited June 11, 2023 by KEV67

[KEV67]

I went to St Mary's Church of England (Continuing) this evening. I thought the vicar might have had a slight dig at the NHS. He mentioned that it was free at the point of delivery, but that financially it was a bottomless pit. Later on in his sermon, he railed against churches who attempted to force error on their congregations. At first I wondered if he was talking about the Church of England, but then he mentioned John Hus and the Council of Trent, so I assume it was the Roman Catholics he was having a go about. He also mentioned that Queen Elisabeth I forced people to attend church under pain of fine, so that they outwardly conformed, although she did not care about their private beliefs.  I made a mental note to look up the Council of Trent. I do not feel I am on the same wavelength as the vicar, and I wonder if he has found me out as a duffer. On the way out, we did not have a lot to say, and he said 'Have a good week.' I am a little annoyed with myself, because I planned to ask him about the meeting of the four Church of England (Continuing) churches that happened yesterday. There were only six of us in the congregation this time, including the organist, the vicar's wife and the vicar's daughter. I am slightly worried about the woman who generally knows how the hymns go, and the pub historian. Later I found out from a regular at his local that the pub historian was away in Ipswich. It occurred to me, that this style of service was the standard up to about thirty years ago, but now is quite rare. When I went to church in the 80s the services were like this. Now, most churches seem more family focussed. The hymns are modern; there's no organ; half way through the children are led out to play.

[KEV67]

Woke up too late to go to the Life Spring church, which I suspect is another independent, evangelical church, in what used to be the snooker hall. I did make it to the Church of England (Continuing) church, St Mary's, in the evening. Only five parishioners: the vicar's wife, his daughter, the organist, the pub historian and myself. This is a little bit worrying. The hymns were a challenge. I do not remember much about the sermon except that he said a bucket of water was heavy to carry, and that a litre of water weighed a kilogram. I think these days a kilogram is defined as the mass of a mole of Carbon-12 divided by 12. The vicar asked me whether I was enjoying the hot weather. I said I thought about wearing my suit but decided against it. He said he had not worn his cassock, although his father would have, he having been a missionary in India and other places. I wondered later in the pub about the irony. The Church of England (Continuing) left the Church of England in 1994, ostensibly over the ordination of women priests, but so far as I know the vicar only has daughters and a granddaughter, so who is going to take over from him when the time comes?

[KEV67]

I went to the Unitarian meeting in the evening. I did not read the email properly, so I did not realise we were supposed to bring a wildflower along. The theme of the session was wildflowers, and also this Czech guy, Norbert Casek, or something like that. It did put me in mind of that Radio 4 programme, Something Understood. I did like the hymn we sang, which I think was called Universal Spirit. We sang to a recording. After a while, Something Understood gave way to Gardeners' Question Time, and I itched to get away. My education never extended to wildflowers. I used to read names like Ragwort, and Speedwell and think of the rabbits in Watership Down. I never knew what the flowers looked like. We were invited to take away a flower different to the one we brought, or in my case, did not bring. I took back a Purple Toadflax. That seemed somewhat Watership Downish. I was perturbed to learn there was more than one sort of Toadflax.

 

A couple of hours later I went to St Mary's Church of England (Continuing). The Old Testament reading was about when David slew the Philistine giant with his sling and cut off his head. I did not remember that before slaying the giant, he had slain a bear and a lion. David was pretty handy I gather. The New Testament reading was about Jesus's sermon in which he told his followers not to worry about tomorrow, and to consider the lilies in the field. This does not seem like great financial advice. Jesus never had a high opinion of money. This is a problem, because many Christians do, which they have to if they have a families, or if they worry about their old age.

[poppy]

Seems like both church services had a floral theme. I looked up London Pride recently after listening to the song. Apparently it's a very hardy little plant that even survived the London bombing. It also spreads and chokes out weeds which sounds ideal for my garden (sorry, I realise that has nothing to do with church attendance, but just adding to the botanical train of thought).

Glad you enjoyed the hymn ... another unsingable one?

[KEV67]

16 hours ago, poppy said:

 

Glad you enjoyed the hymn ... another unsingable one?

No, it was remarkably singable. It was a Unitarian hymn. Unfortunately I cannot find it on YouTube. Maybe Unitarian hymns are better than Methodist hymns. It is the Church of England (Continuing) who have the unsingable hymns.

[Anna Faversham]

I've just come across this thread and found it fascinating. I write historical novels mostly and in each one there is a character such as a parson who provides a sounding board or 'good advice' to those who need it and boy do they need it! Oddly, the C of E parson, who behaves more like a Methodist or Baptist, is one of the most liked characters. In one book, I focus on the Quakers, and in my latest I have brought in The Salvation Army. I'm having fun!

 

I wonder what your latest visits have thrown up, Kevin.

[KEV67]

Thanks Anna,

I went to the Life Spring church this morning. This is a new church that opened up at the bottom of the road where the snooker hall used to be. I went in. I was surprised to see a big screen with strips of decorative lights hanging off it. There were flags from many nations standing up in two places. On the stage there was a band with a white singer/guitarist, a rather attractive Burmese looking woman in a yellow dress playing a guitar. There were two black backing singers, and a black keyboardist and rhythm section. I later learned the singer was Uncle John. They played for about 45 minutes. Then this chap called James got on the stage. He was sort of like a compere, whatever the religious term for that is. Two women were invited up. The first one said that she saw a bin lorry during the week and had the thought that Sunday was the day to get rid of your mental trash. Another woman got up to say that her rash was getting better since she came to church last week. Then Pastor Lev or maybe Nev got up to tell his sermon. The main theme was not to be a loner. He compared the Evil One to a lion, and a loner as being like a wildebeest that had strayed too far from the herd. Then he mentioned some examples that might weaken your faith. The first two were pornography and drinking alcohol. I felt slightly nervous, but I am not sure drinking is actually a sin. The next example was love of money. I am not too bad on that. I think I was still considering whether drinking was a sin because I cannot remember what the fourth example was, but the fifth was anti-authoritanism. He told us to embrace, shake hands or fist-bump six other people. I fist-bumped the African woman next to me, but the others did not seem over keen to fist-bump me, so I made a quick exit. TBF the service had lasted nearly two hours.

Edited August 21, 2023 by KEV67

[KEV67]

Thanks Anna,

I went to the Life Spring church this morning. This is a new church that opened up at the bottom of the road where the snooker hall used to be. I went in. I was surprised to see a big screen with strips of decorative lights hanging off it. There were flags from many nations standing up in two places. On the stage there was a band with a white singer/guitarist, a rather attractive Burmese looking woman in a yellow dress playing a guitar. There were two black backing singers, and a black keyboardist and rhythm section. I later learned the singer was Uncle John. They played for about 45 minutes. Then this chap called James got on the stage. He was sort of like a compere, whatever the religious term for that is. Two women were invited up. The first one said that she saw a bin lorry during the week and had the thought that Sunday was the day to get rid of your sinful trash. Another woman got up to say that the rash on her arm was getting better since she came to church last week. Also she had patched things up with her partner. Then Pastor Lev or maybe Nev got up to tell his sermon. The main theme was not to be a loner. He compared the Evil One to a lion, and a loner as being like a wildebeest that had strayed too far from the herd. Then he mentioned some examples that might weaken your faith. The first two were pornography and drinking alcohol. I felt slightly nervous, but I do not accept that drinking is a sin. The next example was love of money. I am not too bad on that. I think I was still considering whether drinking was a sin because I cannot remember what the fourth example was, but the fifth was anti-authoritarianism. He told us to embrace, shake hands or fist-bump six other people. I fist-bumped the African woman next to me, but the others did not seem over keen to fist-bump me. I was not too bothered because I was worried about getting collared. TBF they were not that bad. I think they were genuine.

Edited July 16, 2023 by KEV67

[KEV67]

I went to St Mary's church on Castle Street. The vicar had a go at re-wilding this time. He said the weeds take over when re-wilding is allowed to happen. I expect Farmer Giles was in agreement. John the pub historian caught me on leaving to warn me a certain place of refreshment was temporarily closed, but I already knew. He said he was going for an operation on Tuesday. I hope he will be alright.

Edited July 16, 2023 by KEV67

[Anna Faversham]

Interesting, Kev. It's a case of finding the right one - one where you feel 'at home', I suppose. Someone I know, (not me, honestly!) tried a new church and when I looked it up on the Internet, it was definitely suspicious. You had to pay to join - several thousand pounds.

[KEV67]

46 minutes ago, Anna Faversham said:

Interesting, Kev. It's a case of finding the right one - one where you feel 'at home', I suppose. Someone I know, (not me, honestly!) tried a new church and when I looked it up on the Internet, it was definitely suspicious. You had to pay to join - several thousand pounds.

This is what I am always worried about. I do not really understand how so many churches keep going when the pubs keep closing. I was worried about being collared by the Life Spring church on the way out and forced to sign up to a hefty direct debit, because I am very weak willed, but actually they seemed alright. They sent around some collection bags and you could pay what you wanted by smart phone or by putting some cash in an envelope. They were promoting an outing, but they said if you cannot pay, pay what you can. I am more worried about the Salvation Army. I suspect if you join up you will be required to stump up cash for their hostel for homeless unemployables, and excursions for the deprived youth from the immigrant community.

[poppy]

I would be turned off any church that put undue pressure on the congregation to donate money.

I'm not sure if the Sallies use those tactics but they do a lot to help the needy. It's not just 'homeless unemployables', as you put it, (and who are no less valued in God's eyes) who need help these days. Hard working families are using food banks more and more because of the high cost of food, rent and interest rates.

[KEV67]

2 hours ago, poppy said:

I would be turned off any church that put undue pressure on the congregation to donate money.

I'm not sure if the Sallies use those tactics but they do a lot to help the needy. It's not just 'homeless unemployables', as you put it, (and who are no less valued in God's eyes) who need help these days. Hard working families are using food banks more and more because of the high cost of food, rent and interest rates.

I do already have a direct debit with St Mungo's, which is a homeless charity. Jesus always liked the down-and-outs more than anyone else, especially those who seemed too proud of themselves for doing the right things, in his leveller logic.

[poppy]

This pretty much sums up Jesus's stance.

[itsmeagain]

3 hours ago, poppy said:

This pretty much sums up Jesus's stance.

God bless you poppy.

[KEV67]

I visited Exeter Cathedral on Thursday. I told the vicar from St Mary's that I was going to Exeter to work on one of our train simulators and he recommended looking around it. It was interesting. There were lots of memorials of parishioners who had died over the centuries. There were old churchmen, soldiers and sailors, young wives. Most of the memorials were in English, but several gave me the chance to practise my Latin. The memorials had quite a lot to say, compared to what is usually chiselled onto a gravestone or inscribed onto a plaque today. They might give a brief outline of the person's career, or how they died, and usually some praise for their characters and conduct. There was a memorial for Scott of the Antartic raised by his mother, although the flag she referred to had gone.

 

This morning I went to the All Nations Christian Centre, Elim Pentecostal Church. The Elim Pentecostals were started by a Welshman in the early 20th Century. I had not heard of them before. They were rather like the Life Spring church I went to a fortnight ago. I think they were presenting a special service aimed at children. The congregation was largely black, although most the people up on stage were white. Debbie, the woman who was leading the service seemed very much like a primary school teacher. So much, so, I would be surprised if she was not one. On the projection screen they has this Space Academy theme. At one point three people dressed up in spacesuits acted out a space rescue mission. There was a band who played modern, up-beat, Christian songs. The young man on vocals and keyboards and the young lady on vocals and acoustic guitar were pretty good I thought. There were some other young ladies who choreographed some moves to some other tunes. The reading was from the Book of Daniel and there was a bit of a quiz afterwards. I guessed correctly (to myself) that the planet 53 million miles away was Mercury, although what that had to do with the reading I could not say. I would have guessed King Nebuchadnezza's statue was made of bronze, but it was gold. The pastor reminded everyone to move their cars, because the traffic warden had been spotted nearly two hours earlier. He asked us to pray for her salvation.  Later there was going to be a bit of a barbecue and tea and coffee, but I did not stay. I was impressed with the amount of effort that church had made.

Edited August 21, 2023 by KEV67