Going to church?

[KEV67]

2 hours ago, lunababymoonchild said:

A clergyman would know that any woman in this day and age would just have an abortion, imho. You could say that your son was born in a foreign country, which is true, but his mother did not survive the birth. Or that you adopted him in a foreign country.  If you have to say anything at all

I have to do a DNA paternity test. If it is proved I am Adrian's father I have to apply for a paternity order. If not I would have to apply to adopt him. That is if the surrogate signs the release papers. If I have to adopt Adrian I would probably be in the clear as far as my church is concerned. I am pretty sure I am the father. One of his carers says he is a Xerox of me.

[KEV67]

I have not been to any of the Orthodox Church services.  However,  I am not very happy with them. They put pressure on the Georgian government to change their surrogacy laws, which may make it more difficult to get Adrian home. There are one or two Anglican or episcopal congregations. I was interested in attending one because the vicar could be a referee for his British citizenship application.  I don't think the vicar or curate is prepared to be a referee or does not think he can. He is happy to baptise him, however. 

[KEV67]

I tried to find the Anglican congregation again on Sunday. Again I failed. 

I visited a Georgian Orthodox cathedral today. It was a very imposing building.  There were no stain glass windows,  but there were many religious paintings.  They use metal a lot in their pictures. It looks like they use a lot of gold leaf. Must be worth a bob or two.

[KEV67]

I have not been to any Orthodox Church services,  but I have poked my head in. They don't have stain glass, but they have a lot of religious paintings. They tend to use metal in their religious art. I am not sure whether it is all silver and gold, but it looks like it. They don't have pews neither. Everybody stands. 

 

This is one of their cathedrals. I can see it five miles away.

 

Edited March 25, 2024 by KEV67

[KEV67]

I attended a Unitarian meeting online a fortnight ago. They seemed pleased with Adrian's birth. The average age of the Unitarians is about 65 by my reckoning. It might be higher than that. The pastor (I am not sure that is position) was intrigued to see a room full of Kazakh surrogate women.

[itsmeagain]

On 1/21/2024 at 1:46 AM, poppy said:

I think members of the clergy, if following the teachings of Jesus, should not be condemning anyone. 

 

Georgia looks a very beautiful country.

There's some outstanding scenery in Georgia. Really nice.  

Edited June 15, 2024 by itsmeagain

[Anna Faversham]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:37 PM, KEV67 said:

This is what I am always worried about. I do not really understand how so many churches keep going when the pubs keep closing. I was worried about being collared by the Life Spring church on the way out and forced to sign up to a hefty direct debit, because I am very weak willed, but actually they seemed alright. They sent around some collection bags and you could pay what you wanted by smart phone or by putting some cash in an envelope. They were promoting an outing, but they said if you cannot pay, pay what you can. I am more worried about the Salvation Army. I suspect if you join up you will be required to stump up cash for their hostel for homeless unemployables, and excursions for the deprived youth from the immigrant community.

I'm so sorry, Kev, I've only just seen this. I don't seem to be getting email alerts any more and I began to think the site must have closed!

I'll try to answer your questions now.

I find C of E vicars can be easy going or what they call 'high church' where there is chanting, so my parson in 4 of my books is more like a Methodist or Baptist because he is very casual. He's a country parson and carries on more or less as he sees fit for his congregation of farmers and smugglers!

I also mention The Salvation Army in one of my books (look my books up on Amazon if you like) and it seems that you don't have to join, you can just go along as you would to a C of E or other UK church. A collection plate or bag is passed around and you can put in any amount you like or nothing. It seemed that you certainly don't have to pay towards their charity work - as you indicate, they do a lot of this and I think it's good.

Hope this helps - and I'm so sorry it's very late.

[KEV67]

I have not been to church in months, but that is because I have been in Tbilisi, waiting for a passport for my son to arrive. Most the churches around here are Georgian Orthodox. Occasionally I hear singing. They don't have stain glass windows, they have religious paintings and metallic images. I am not sure whether the images are actually in silver and gold, but it looks so. There are no pews, everyone stands up. People appear more religious here than in the UK. Many people cross themselves when they pass a church, even young people. My son was born through surrogacy, which the Georgian Orthodox church is very much against.  I saw a clip on YouTube of a priest being interviewed. He was worried the Antichrist would be born via surrogacy.  I doubt my son is the Antichrist.  If he is then he hides it very well. I am glad you posted Anna, because it reminds me the monthly Unitarian meeting in Reading is this afternoon (I think). I will try to zoom in.

Edited June 16, 2024 by KEV67

[Anna Faversham]

"Everyone stands up." Crikey! That wouldn't suit me. Yes, I think you're probably right, the UK is no longer particularly religious - well not Christian anyway. And something I've noticed is that nobody believes, or thinks about Hell any more. Andy Hamilton wrote a great comedy about Hell called 'Old Harry's Game'. Very funny and well researched.

 

"Antichrist born via surrogacy." Another crikey! Let's hope it's a thousand years from now. Although the way the world is going, it could be next week.

 

How's the passport application coming along? Will you soon have your son here in the UK?

[KEV67]

I quite like that they are religious around here. I am frequently surprised to see people cross themselves in front of churches here, even ones that are not fully built yet. There are quite a few shops and stalls that sell religious pictures and artefacts. I was thinking of getting one for Adrian's bedroom. I also fancy a Georgian bible, only I would have very great trouble reading it. I have been trying to learn Georgian, but it is a difficult language. They have their own unique alphabet. 

 

I am still some way off getting Adrian home. I hope his birth-mother will sign the consent document for his citizenship application and his passport. The form has to be translated into Georgian and Kazakh and signed in front of a notary. Then the form has to be apostilled, which means being made internationally legal. This should have happened last month when the other forms for the parental order were signed, but they were overlooked. This has been a big pain because the surrogate is quite a forceful woman, and refused to sign the forms unless I paid her thousands more dollars, which I am not really supposed to do under British law. To be fair she has looked after Adrian very well. The bigger issue with the surrogate being difficult is that my surrogacy lawyer has to do more work, and she is very, very expensive. 

[KEV67]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:56 PM, Anna Faversham said:

"Everyone stands up." Crikey! That wouldn't suit me. Yes, I think you're probably right, the UK is no longer particularly religious - well not Christian anyway. And something I've noticed is that nobody believes, or thinks about Hell any more. Andy Hamilton wrote a great comedy about Hell called 'Old Harry's Game'. Very funny and well 

I remember listening to Harry's Game. I wonder if it was inspired by C.S. Lewis's Screwtape. Modern Christians don't seem to believe in hell anymore. I once read the memoirs of a man involved in the music industry, Something Boulevard. He was a real tearaway as a kid and became addicted to heroin. He had a near death experience, but instead of going up a tunnel of light went the other way. He said Hell was blue. What is interesting to me about that is the phrase 'fire and brimstone'. Brimstone is another word for sulphur and sulphur burns blue. Another thing that interests me about these near death experiences is that if they are really only the products of a dying brain then it must be the person's own conscience that sends him one place or the other. These near death experiences seem an odd thing to evolve. What would be the evolutionary benefit?

[Anna Faversham]

The only thing I can think of in relation to near death experiences being useful is that it does give the person a second chance to maybe turn things around and improve themselves/others/the planet.

 

I found your comment about sulphur burning blue very interesting!

[KEV67]

I am in the process of relocating from Reading to Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. I attended a service at the Unitarian church in Bury St Edmunds last Sunday. It was not as good as the services usually are in Reading, but it was the same sort of thing, mainly readings with the odd hymn. Think 'Something Understood' on Radio 4. I have not returned to the other church I used to go to in Reading. I may do this Sunday, but I am concerned the vicar will take a dim view of my having become a single parent via surrogacy. There is another Church of England (Continuing) about 55 miles away from Bury St Edmunds in a place called Frimton-on-Sea. It is accessible by rail, but it is difficult to get there by 11 o'clock on Sunday. 

[KEV67]

I went to the Bury St Edmunds Unitarian service today. There are so few Unitarians that some of them knew members from the Reading group.

The usual leader (pastor/whatever) had suffered a bereavement, so another member led the service. He was an American from Kansas. He said he was born in 50s to a Southern Baptist father and a Pentecostal mother. I am not very clear on who the Pentecostals are; I think they may be the ones that speak in tongues. He is quite well educated in church matters. He said later he became an Anabaptist. He said Anabaptists were persecuted by Catholics and Protestants. The term was familiar, but I cannot remember what was different about them. Then he said he became a Mennonite. I think they are similar to the Amish. When he came to England he said he was looking for a church to join that corresponded somewhat with his beliefs. A Unitarian woman told him that they loved Mennonites, so he joined the Unitarians. 

[Anna Faversham]

I do know that the Pentecostals are strong in speaking in tongues. I don't know anything about the Anabaptists and Mennonites. I know something about the Amish. 

 

What did you think about the service? Will you give it another try when the usual leader returns? And were the people welcoming and friendly?

 

I'll look up on Wikipedia about the Anabaptists and Mennonites asap. Gotta go out now.

[KEV67]

I thought the Unitarian service was alright, but not as good as the services were in Reading. If the Radio 4 programme, Something Understood, is still on, Unitarian services are somewhat like that, with readings and music often following a theme. At Reading they used a projector and YouTube sometimes. Unitarians are not very strong on doctrine or procedure. The thing I liked least was the organist goes on for quite a bit. 

[Anna Faversham]

Quote

 

I do hope you'll find something soon - feeding your soul is life-changing.

[KEV67]

Went to Unitarians again today. There was another speaker. The service was little more like a traditional church service. The most interesting bit was when the minister asked for people to nominate joys and sorrows. He lit a candle for each. The minister said he was happy about spring having arrived. Then someone got up and said he'd been in a zoom meeting with old colleagues from Harvard, who were all very distressed about Trump's treatment of Zelensky. He was joyful about that. I thought 'Harvard' wtf! Then an old, very short old man in grey suit, got up and expressed his sorrow of a Cambridge University don, called Don Cupitt, who wrote many religious books and presented a television series on religion back in the 70s. Wtf, I thought again. I thought about nominating as a joy that Adrian has started walking, but I lost my bottle. 

[lunababymoonchild]

Good news that Adrian is walking

[Madeleine]

I was wondering how Adrian was, that's lovely that he's walking , and definitely a joy.

[KEV67]

I went to the Unitarians in Bury St Edmunds again. The pastor said there would be a ten minute meeting after the service. He described it as an opportunity some would like to benefit from. I didn't like the sound of that, especially as one of the readings was from Acts of the Apostles. It was the bit where there was no want in the community, because anyone who had land or property sold it and gave the proceeds to the community. He did not read the next verses, which I remember as being one of the most chilling parts of the New Testament. Two followers sold their property, but did not hand over the entire proceeds. They were struck dead. Christianity rowed back on that position, thankfully. I escaped before tea and biscuits. 

Edited April 6 by KEV67

[Anna Faversham]

Ooh... 🤔

[Anna Faversham]

Tried any more, Kev?

 

I've heard that loads more people are going to church now - possibly many feel that the world is getting to be more dangerous.

[KEV67]

I went back to the Unitarians. Otherwise, I haven't. I might try the United Reform church close by, or some sort of independent church down the road. I expect the independent church has a band and is somewhat child oriented.

[Anna Faversham]

Have you ever thought of making a list of all the churches you've been to? You could comment on each and give them marks out of 10! It might flag up the strong contenders.

 

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but it's important - someone I've known for some years tried what sounded a great independent church. She'd heard that it was attracting loads of new people. I think she said she tried it out and was asked to join - for a fee! Something like that; I've forgotten now. I only remember being astonished at the size of the fee.