Karsa Orlong

Interesting. I think maybe there are levels of it, with level 1 being at the lighter end (Grimdusk?) into which Erikson maybe fits (although some people seem to find his books unremittingly bleak, which I just don't get). I tend to disagree that Abercrombie is taking it to new levels, though - I think he's just high profile right now and so is being used as the whipping boy along with Mark Lawrence. I think GRRM has far worse things happen in his books than Abercrombie does, or Lawrence for that matter. Shame his second middle name isn't 'Ian' cos then his initials would be perfect By contrast I think Abercrombie always includes some light in the darkness, some hope for his characters, and plenty of humour, even if it is very dark humour. I found this on Mark Lawrence's blog, which is quite amusing, and this on Joe Abercrombie's. Worth a read

Well I don't keep that many books, I simply don't have the space for them, so the ones I do keep tend to be the ones that are special for me in one way or another I guess I'm with Betty on this one, in that I find the unknown more frightening, and not having those explanations didn't bother me so much. Sometimes the explanations can be really disappointing, too, and maybe even quite daft, totally robbing the story of any impact. Just how I feel, anyway. There's an interesting review by Jo Walton here that I found yesterday. She doesn't like the book all that much, and she's particularly scathing about Phyllis, which I found quite interesting, but - if you look at comment 10 after the review - you find this little nugget: "Today, I just read the 1953 typescript for The Kraken Wakes. Do not think it is /meant/ to have that magical ending. The original ending has both a foreword and an afterword from the "International Renaissance Commission", saying that they are publishing this "account" from a found manuscript and that they do not know if the authors are dead or alive. Secondly, there is no ultrasonic weapon, and there is a suggestion that the Xenobaths have simply entered a dormant state or had trouble breeding in Earth's oceans, rather than have died out. That's a brutal, short summary of it, but the "Oh hey the Japanese saved us" ending was added as an "alternate" ending, apparently for Ballantine books." Obviously, I don't know how much truth there is in this (shouldn't believe everything we read on the internet after all!) but it does seem uncannily similar to the situation with 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'.

I think it's safe to say that I won't be voting for Rachel - she's bloody awful! Don't know how they managed to score Mrs Crouch so highly last night, she forgot half the routine. They do have their favourites

Total Recall (2012 remake). 'Twasn't awful. Kate Beckinsale's in it, I like

I wish I think you could trace this so-called 'grimdark' sub-genre back a lot further than the last few years, if you wanted to, to Stephen Donaldson's first Thomas Covenant book, and probably even further. Abercrombie's certainly taken it into 'heroic fantasy' - whether or not he's the first to do that I don't know, but I think all those authors have been labeled 'grimdark' at one point or another. I've never really liked the label, tbh

An interview with John Wyndham from 1960, with an extract from The Kraken Wakes, read by Alan Whicker of all people

Book #58: The Kraken Wakes by John Wyndham From Amazon: It started with fireballs raining down from the sky and crashing into the oceans’ deeps. For journalists Mike and Phyllis Watson, what at first appears to be a curiosity becomes a global calamity. Helpless, they watch as humanity struggles to survive now that water – one of the compounds upon which life depends – is turned against them. The Kraken Wakes is a brilliant novel of how humankind responds to the threat of its own extinction and, ultimately, asks what we are prepared to do in order to survive. Thoughts: I won't say too much about this one, as it's being discussed in depth (with spoilers) over in the Reading Circle. I've also edited the above blurb as it was so spoilery A few non-spoilery comments: Published in 1955 with the Cold War in full flow and science fiction movies making their presence felt (the original movie version of The War of the Worlds was released two years beforehand - I can imagine it inspiring Wyndham a great deal) The Kraken Wakes is a story of alien invasion on a global scale, yet it's more an examination of how mankind might deal with such a crisis than it is about the aliens themselves. If the sea is taken away from you as a mode of transport, how do you get the vital cargoes you need to survive? How do you deal with a foe that lives so deep beneath the waves you can't get anywhere near it (sending Ed Harris down in a silly suit to meet a bunch of jellyfish is not an option!)? Etc etc. The two main characters, Mike and Phyllis Watson, are journalists, and their story is told in retrospect. It's an interesting choice that sometimes makes for sections that are quite dry: it is in the collapse of trade, the economy and society that Wyndham focuses his attention and, whilst it does have its moments of excitement, it won't be for those who want an out and out thrill-fest. This book holds a special place for me. I'm paraphrasing this bit from my post in the RC thread: When I was 11 or 12, in middle school, our teacher was off for some reason, and the headmaster came to sit with us for one particular lesson. Instead of teaching us, he decided to read from a book, and the scene he read I found so scary that I never forgot it. I remember being completely hypnotised by it as he read. Afterwards, I realised that I didn't know what the book was, but that scene always stuck in my mind. It was only about 3 years later that I bought The Kraken Wakes. I think the cover intrigued me. Pretty soon I was reading that scene, so I rediscovered it more by luck than judgement. I still found that scene pretty scary all these years later. When the headmaster read it to us it was probably my first encounter with written science fiction, and ranks alongside seeing Star Trek on tv in the early 70s and my folks taking me to see Star Wars on my 12th birthday as one of those moments that shaped my tastes. I won't go into detail about that bit, but I think it is the scene around which the whole book pivots, and I can imagine Wyndham creating it in his mind and then building the whole novel around it. It is the most brilliant, chilling part of the book by some distance. The Kraken Wakes is not Wyndham's best novel, but the fact that I still own that paperback, from 1981, the pages yellowed but otherwise in pristine condition, tells you just how special it is to me. 8/10

I honestly don't know, but there were a couple of running jokes in the novel, both that one and the EBC/BBC one. Neither were particularly funny, although I was quite amused when Mike started to cut people off as soon as Holmes was mentioned, cos he was sick and tired of it. Maybe Wyndham himself recognised that it was getting old pretty quickly

1. Were you engaged immediately with the story, or did it take you a while to get into it? As I've mentioned elsewhere, this was a re-read for me, but it is over 30 years since the first time. When I saw it was up for the RC I took it off the shelf out of curiosity. The fact that it is still on my shelf, that I have kept it since I was 14 or 15 years old, shows how much it meant to me (for reasons I'll get to a bit further on). So I took it off the shelf this time and read the first page or two, just to see how I'd feel about re-reading it now, and I just kept reading. So I obviously engaged with it immediately. 2. Did you have a favourite character? And a least favourite? Phyllis! She's the brains in this operation, and very funny at times, too (I loved the way she'd say something, think "oh, that's good!" and go off to note it down). I liked Bocker, too. He didn't really care what people thought of him, said what he thought, and he was usually right. I found that the characters kind of grew without any overt development. It's not like they have any conversations that aren't about the crisis, and I don't think Wyndham described Phyllis or Mike once throughout the novel. I don't even remember if he mentioned what colour their hair was, so how these characters managed to work is quite strange, and representative of a lot of vintage SF, I think I didn't have a least favourite. 3. Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest? Going back to why this book holds a special place for me, when I was 11 or 12, in middle school, our teacher was off for some reason, and the headmaster came to sit with us for one particular lesson. Instead of teaching us, he decided to read from a book, and the scene he read I found so scary that I never forgot it. I remember being completely hypnotised by it as he read. Afterwards, I realised that I didn't know what the book was, but that scene always stuck in my mind. It was only about 3 years later that I bought The Kraken Wakes. I think the cover intrigued me. Pretty soon I was reading that scene, so I rediscovered it more by luck than judgement. The scene being the one in the town on Escondida, where Mike and Phyllis witness the attack of the sea-tanks. I still found it pretty scary all these years later. I'd say that the headmaster reading that scene was probably my first encounter with written science fiction, and therefore ranks alongside seeing Star Trek on tv in the early 70s and my folks taking me to see Star Wars on my 12th birthday as one of those moments that shaped my tastes. Apart from that, this time I also really enjoyed 'Phase Three'. Somehow it seemed to have a resonance with today's concerns about the polar icecaps and global warming, and I loved the images of England devolving into a bunch of islands as the water rose and the survivors fled for the high ground. I didn't realise those images had stayed with me from this book, as I've used similar in a story of my own. 4. Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with? No, not at all. It's a fairly straightforward book, I think. It's a little slow in places, but that I think is down to the choice Mike makes at the start of the book - we know we're reading his account and that he's a journalist, so much of the novel come across that way. I never felt bored by it but I'm glad he kept it short and to the point. It's noticeable that the book never strays from the main story. 5. Was this the first book you've read by this author, and has it encouraged you to read more? It was my first of his on the first time I read it. After that I went on to read more of his, like The Day of the Triffids, The Midwich Cuckoos, The Trouble With Lichen, Web etc. I might actually go back and re-read some of those now, and pick up some of the ones I haven't read before, too. 6. The book opens with Rationale where Mike and Phyllis the book he is thinking of writing. Did you feel it took away the sense of peril to the two leads throughout the story, as you knew they had survived? I think that's always a problem with a book that starts at the end, so to speak, or even those told in first person (assuming it's not in diary form or somesuch). But the 'Rationale' grabbed me and made me want to know how they'd ended up in this situation, so it was good from that point of view, even though I knew they were going to survive. I think it's more of a problem in thrillers and such, where there really needs to be that fear factor. 7. Also in Rationale, Phyllis suggests an opening for the proposed book, using an excerpt of poetry, but Mike has decided that he prefers The Kraken by Tennyson. Which did you prefer? I kind of like Phyllis's choice, as it underplays the horror that is to follow, but Mike made the right choice in the end, I think. 8. The "kraken" itself was relatively unknown throughout the book, and the effect of its actions on the human race took precedence. Did you find it believable as a villain, for want of a better word, or did you think it was less important and that the purpose of the story was more about how man would cope in a global crisis? The latter. I honestly couldn't remember, on picking up the book again, whether or not there was ever any revelation about the 'kraken', their origin or their motives, but it's pretty clear for most of the novel that it is more of an examination of how we, as a species, would deal with such a crisis. Wyndham's very fatalistic in that regard and, sadly, he's probably right. I suppose his views have dated a fair bit (you can tell the novel was written in the midst of the Cold War) but I love his imagination. I suppose, if I went into it wanting to know more about the 'kraken' I'd feel pretty cheated and annoyed at the end, but fortunately that was not the case. I did find myself slightly amused by the ending, though - and not for those reasons, but for the forced hint at a good outcome. It reminded me of the 1956 movie version of Invasion of the Body Snatchers where the studio didn't like the original, pessimistic ending, and so made the director go back and film framing scenes for the beginning and the end to tell everyone it was all going to be okay 9. Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience? Yes, very much so - although I'm glad he kept it short, as I mentioned. A 400 page novel with the same sort of approach would have overstayed its welcome by some distance, I think. 10. Would you recommend the book to others? Yes, definitely. I don't think it's his best (I'd say The Midwich Cuckoos or The Day of the Triffids win that award) but it is the one of which I have the fondest memories, for the reasons mentioned above.

Hmm, interesting. I'd debate that he led the way, tbh - the likes of Cook, Martin and Erikson were there long before him. Abercrombie's riding the wave, though, for sure <<ponders>>

I've felt the same about the books of his that I've read, Tim - including Weaveworld

Castle 6x02

Well the trilogy is in one volume on Kindle for £10 I'm 150 pages into The Kraken Wakes

One of my faves, wish they'd play it live

Yeah, that would've been the perfect opportunity to set it up! Even failing that, it could just have been mentioned in a conversation eary on, and someone could've asked him what it meant, and he could smile enigmatically, or something along those lines

The instances I was thinking of didn't involve the 'remembering', they were just there because ML omitted to tell the reader relevant details until the last minute, such as: He could have set those up so much better if he'd had some minor scene about them earlier on, left the reader to forget about them, and then brought them back for the pay-off.

Not another one! That's no age at all RIP Tom.

I thought you were! I haven't read it, I'm afraid, and it would likely mean reading the whole trilogy, wouldn't it? Assuming I liked it I'll have a think about it

Thanks The last one's already out - Laura's already reviewed it, I think

I noticed The Kraken Wakes was the RC book for this month so last night, just out of curiosity, I dug out my old copy (I read it in 1981, when I was at school ) and read the first page - then I just kept reading, and brought it with me today, so I guess I might be commenting in an RC thread for the first time ever

Book #57: King of Thorns (Broken Empire Book 2) by Mark Lawrence From Amazon: To reach greatness you must step on bodies, and many brothers lie trodden in my wake. I’ve walked from pawn to player and I’ll win this game of ours, though the cost of it may drown the world in blood… The land burns with the fires of a hundred battles as lords and petty kings fight for the Broken Empire. The long road to avenge the slaughter of his mother and brother has shown Prince Honorous Jorg Ancrath the hidden hands behind this endless war. He saw the game and vowed to sweep the board. First though he must gather his own pieces, learn the rules of play, and discover how to break them. A six nation army, twenty thousand strong, marches toward Jorg's gates, led by a champion beloved of the people. Every decent man prays this shining hero will unite the empire and heal its wounds. Every omen says he will. Every good king knows to bend the knee in the face of overwhelming odds, if only to save their people and their lands. But King Jorg is not a good king. Thoughts: I won't go into much more detail about the plot other than the blurb, above, what with this being a sequel and all. Suffice to say that the story picks up four years after the events of Prince of Thorns and, in a narrative trick similar to that used in the first book, fills in the gaps with flashbacks, and a terrific subplot involving memories. There are also diary entries from another character which fill in still further gaps. Much like the first book - and to a greater degree, I think - these narrative strands are weaved together in such a clever way that I found made me read faster than usual because I wanted to know why something had happened. I really liked that, in the paperback at least, the various strands had different typefaces so, at any point in the book, you know exactly which period you're in without having to refer back and forth. Very clear and neat. I wonder how that would work on an ereader? Lawrence has a writing style that is very easy to read, and yet is full of brilliant, evocative (and sometimes repulsive!) description and philosophising that really gets you inside Jorg's head. It is quite thought-provoking on many occasions. The action - and there is plenty of it - is vivid when it comes, but it was the characters that really held my attention. As the story is told in first person, you only get Jog's impressions of these other people. As such, some of them don't really get fleshed out, apart from short interludes between chapters, but I didn't feel any less shocked and/or sad when he started killing them off - and he has a tendency to do away with them suddenly and without warning. I do have some minor issues with the book. Much as with its predecessor, I still have trouble accepting that someone so young could know quite so much. This book also, I thought, took a while to get going; it's nearly 200 pages longer than Prince, so that is to be expected, I suppose, and - once it does get going - it moves at a phenomenal pace. I read nearly 200 pages in one sitting, which is incredibly rare for me to do, so that indicates just how much it was thrilling me. Lastly, I think ML does need to do a bit more about set-ups and pay-offs. I find he has a tendency to not reveal a vital piece of information until about three paragraphs before it becomes relevant, which I found undermined the suspense a touch as I ended up expecting Jorg to have a solution instead of worrying that he might not. It's not that it doesn't work as it is - it does - but I sometimes like the long game, a set-up earlier in the novel that pays off much later. When he does do it that way it works brilliantly. Overall, I thought this book was every bit as enthralling as the first. He even, to a degree, manages to maintain the shock value that I thought might have worn off after the previous book (there's one scene early on, involving a punishment from his father, that I found far more upsetting than anything I've read in, well, ages). Once the various plot strands start to reveal their depths and secrets the novel achieves heights I really wasn't expecting after the slow start. It is a focused, relentless, and very rewarding read. Well done, Mr Lawrence - I look forward to the finale with much excitement 9/10

I'll watch it just to see how much dafter it can get It makes 24 look like a documentary at times

It should have been - it would have saved a lot of trouble

Totally agree with you on this bb. This was the book that began the end of my real interest in King. I'd read all of his books prior to this (except Carrie, for some reason, which I've still not read). Although I did read a few of his later books, I don't think I've really enjoyed one since Misery, which just happened to be the book he published before The Tommyknockers. I thought Insomnia (as in 'it was a cure for . . ') and Desperation were very appropriately named