Karsa Orlong

One of my favourite pieces of description from Prince of Thorns: I tried to look at her. No point in her held constant. As if definition were a thing for mortals, a reduction that her essence would not allow. She wore pale, in shades. She had the eyes of everyone who ever cared. And wings - she had those too, but not in white and feathers, rather in the surety of flight. The potential of sky wrapped her. Sometimes her skin seemed to be clouds, moving one across the other. I looked away. I crouched there, a knot of flesh and bone, with only dirt and old blood to define me beneath the scrutiny of her brilliance.

Thanks guys No, I got the paperback Did you go for the Kindle version? Is it true that there is no map included? ETA: Of course, now I have my usual dilemma about whether to dive straight into the second book or read something else first

Book #54: Prince of Thorns (The Broken Empire Book 1) by Mark Lawrence From Amazon: Before the thorns taught me their sharp lessons and bled weakness from me I had but one brother, and I loved him well. But those days are gone and what is left of them lies in my mother's tomb. Now I have many brothers, quick with knife and sword, and as evil as you please. We ride this broken empire and loot its corpse. They say these are violent times, the end of days when the dead roam and monsters haunt the night. All that's true enough, but there's something worse out there, in the dark. Much worse. From being a privileged royal child, raised by a loving mother, Jorg Ancrath has become the Prince of Thorns, a charming, immoral boy leading a grim band of outlaws in a series of raids and atrocities. The world is in chaos: violence is rife, nightmares everywhere. Jorg has the ability to master the living and the dead, but there is still one thing that puts a chill in him. Returning to his father's castle Jorg must confront horrors from his childhood and carve himself a future with all hands turned against him. Thoughts: I feel a bit sorry for Mark Lawrence. It seems that he has been chosen as the poster-boy for those who want to bash the so-called 'grimdark' sub-genre of fantasy that also includes the likes of George R. R. Martin, Joe Abercrombie, Steven Erikson, Richard Morgan etc. I've seen it happening on other forums and, to his credit, Lawrence has taken part in the discussions, although he's obviously been quite bemused by some of the vitriol coming his way. A lot of this criticism has centred on the main character, Jorg, being a rapist. Now, having read the book, I can't help wondering what all those people were going on about. There is a rape, yes, but it happens off-screen, so to speak, and Lawrence doesn't make excuses for it. Prince of Thorns is a dark, dark novel about an amoral fourteen year-old seeking revenge upon the so-called Broken Empire, but is there anything worse in here than there is to be found in one of George R.R. Martin's books? No, not by a long, long way. Is there anything here worse than anything in a book like American Psycho? Nope. And, quite bizarrely, coming off the back of reading The Pale Horseman, a book about the Vikings - who were not exactly averse to a little raping and pillaging - how is it that this particular novel is being singled out for attack and not Bernard Cornwell, or any other historical novelist who deals with battle and its aftermath? It's not even half as bad as what Stephen Donaldson did in Lord Foul's Bane, the first of his 'Thomas Covenant' books, and I found that unpalatable. Half the problem here is, imo, that this story is told in the first person. Lawrence wants to get you inside Jorg's head and find out what makes him tick. In fact, the whole book is less about the story and more about Jorg himself. You have access to his innermost thoughts, and you'll spend pages learning about events that have contributed to him being this way, and then Jorg himself will tell you it's no excuse, that he knows he's a psychopath, and everyone should get the hell out of his way or pay the consequences. Perhaps even more bizarrely, Lawrence doesn't go into any detail about the particular actions which have caused the debate. It is there by inference at most. He's more interested in delving into Jorg's psyche. I'm not even sure he wants you to like Jorg, and certainly not some of the things he does, but you do reach the end of the story with a better understanding of what has made him this way. This is Lawrence's first novel, and it is another reason why it's remarkable. His writing is brave, uncompromising, full of wonderful descriptions and turns of phrase, and his voice is consistent and engaging throughout. His characters are vivid, even though it is only Jorg who is fully fleshed out, kind of a cross between Locke Lamora and Gregor Clegane, as one reviewer put it. His twisted world is not quite what you might be expecting (and to say more about that would spoil the sense of discovery as you go along). The pacing is relentless, the pages fly by. And, above all else, he manages to tell a compelling story that asks you to think about what you're reading, and to question your sympathies and your attitudes. He should be applauded for that, I think. Tim, you need have no fear - this is no Game of Thrones rip-off. It is nothing like Martin's books. Maybe there's a little of Abercrombie in the pitch-black humour. Perhaps there's a little of Glen Cook in the first-person narrative. But mostly, it's just Mark Lawrence, and he's a refreshing voice in a crowded genre. I wish I'd read it sooner. Bring on the King of Thorns 9/10

Readalong!!! Although I'll probably squeeze in some other books between each of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0frQTSK4fA Don't know about those shorts, though

King of Thorns has been bought I nearly bought Emperor as well. Nearly

Aw, I thought it might be about Norm from Cheers

You should watch the second half of the first season, then, cos that's where you'll find it

Must be tears of joy ETA: You should give The Shield a try

Green vegetables. That's all I bloody have these days

Fair enough. It would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same things For what it's worth I wasn't implying that it's a case of old fantasy versus new fantasy. I used to love old fantasy, and I still have fond memories of David Eddings' books, and LotR etc, it's just my tastes have changed in recent years Out of interest, have you tried Robin Hobb or Blake Charlton? Or Brandon Sanderson?

If you haven't read them how do you know they lack depth? I'm wondering if we're talking at crossed purposes. Neither I nor SF are talking about the so-called 'dark fantasy' stuff, or 'paranormal romance' if you like, vampires and all that sub-genre. We're talking about fantasy that is dark, i.e. gritty, which is quite a different thing

Did you ever watch the tv show 'The Shield'? I get the feeling, from the little I've read so far, that Mark Lawrence is attempting to do something similar with these books as Shawn Ryan did with that show, in that he took a bunch of pretty detestable characters, got you inside their heads, made you like them and even root for them, and then turned round, held up a mirror and made you question everything you'd thought about them. I'm probably wrong, but it would be pretty cool if that were the case.

^^ I'll let SF say whether he wants his thread to go down that road or not. It would be helpful if you could give some examples, though. It's a good point - I wonder if much of the debate has been as a result of it being written in first person? <<ponders>>

Not that I've noticed Does that make me a bad person? Don't answer that

I was also thinking about Emperor. I don't usually start on trilogies until they're all available in paperback. I may have to Kindle it. Or I could buy the hardback and then post pictures of it to taunt you I'm 65 pages into Prince. Looks like I may have made it past the "I'm disgusted by it but I only read the first few pages" stage

I was thinking that I shall probably get it tomorrow. Or today.

Probably not. By all accounts, Roddenberry didn't think Ellison's original story would have worked on tv, and the episode we got is fantastic, so . . .

Well there's Garion for a start But yeah, it was a generalisation, my point being that a lot of modern fantasy authors are trying to get away from the tropes of the past. Yeah, that is irritating, but I think that's just the popular stuff that the bookshops choose to stock. There are still dragons and wizards around if you look for them

He wrote the original screenplay for the best ever episode of Star Trek (imo), 'The City of the Edge of Forever'. Then Roddenberry and co decided it was too controversial (because it was about drug dealing) and changed it. And it's still the best episode

I could've sworn we'd talked about that before. I remember saying "What is a planetary romance anyway? Do they meet in orbit for a date?" I wish I could get my TBR pile down to 50 - and it's been under 60 for a while now

I think that's probably the case. As far as I can see, there's as much - if not more - fantasy being published these days, it's just the bookshops don't seem to stock as much of it. I think that's largely down to publishers wanting to squeeze as many books out of a series as possible, which takes up a lot of shelfspace as a result, so the shops will only stock the big sellers. In fact, I'd go so far as to say there's almost too much new fantasy that I want to read, and I know I'll never get to read it all.

It grew up And is much better for it (in my opinion!). There's only so many farmboys with a destiny one can take