Going to church?

[KEV67]

I went to St Mary's Castle Street in the evening. Very low attendance. Someone crept in about half way through the service, but only stayed about twenty minutes before leaving. The sermon was pretty long and rambling. This is a very traditional service. It is not very child friendly. I thought that in the old days parents must have brought their children, so what was it like. Small children can't cope with listening to boring, half-hour sermons, not singing dreary hymns. If I brought a small child I would have to bring a colouring book with him. I did go to a Greek Orthodox church by mistake once. They dealt with issue by letting the children play while the service was in progress.

[KEV67]

I planned to go to the Christadelphians this morning, but I did not feel mentally strong enough. The Christadelphians are very bible-orientated. I am not sure how wacky they are.

 

I went to St Mary's Castle Street in the evening. I counted seven people in the congregation, and add to them the vicar's wife, the organist and the vicar himself then it was not a bad haul for them.  I thought I was getting the hang a bit of the hymns. Also, top tip, do not close your prayer book, because after the next prayer or reading you will be starting again in the same place. The sermon started off as a discussion on ontology. The ancient Greeks loved discussing new ideas, but did that make them wise? Well, that depended on what the new idea was and whether they believed it. Then the sermon veered off onto the differences of approach between John the Baptist and Jesus. John the Baptist was quite austere, while Jesus was a glutton and a wine-bibber and a friend of sinners and publicans. What was so bad about publicans? My granny's family ran a pub, the John Peel in Nottingham, which has closed down or changed into something else. Actually, I know from my Latin studies that publicans were tax collectors, so collaborators with the Roman regime as far as the Jews were concerned. Then the vicar related a particularly odd story. He said during one of Ireland's famines (I did not know there was more than one) the British landlords of an estate in Ireland offered to wipe off the rents owned by any of their tenants, provided they turned up before 12 o' clock on a certain date. On the day mentioned, a lot of people turned up at the market but could not decide whether to put any trust in the offer. Then some young lad arrived a bit flustered and went up the manor, showed his rent book and had his rent cancelled. Then he went back to the market place, told everyone the offer was real, but by then it was 12 o'clock and the gates had closed. I am not sure whether it was a true story. I doubt it would go down well in a lot of churches.

[KEV67]

I attended the Christadelphian meeting this morning. There was a bit of confusion. They wanted me to sign in the visitors' book. Then they asked me to write where I was from, so I wrote Reading. This confused them, until I told them I was Church if England, not from another branch of the church.

 

The congregation was mostly white British and Iranian. The Christadelphians are involved in some sort of campaign over these Iranians' immigration status. On the screen there were English and Farsi projections from biblical texts. Otherwise the service was quite traditional and more like what I imagine Dissenter churches used to be like. A woman played an electronic organ. The hymns sounded traditional. The women wore hats or headscarves. There was no stain-glass or ornamentation. There were no pews, just chairs. The Eucharist was slightly different: chunks of French stick were passed around and the congregation picked bits off. Then the wine, which tasted more like Ribena, was passed around on trays in little plastic thimbles. One reading was from Job and another was from Mark about Christ's arrest and Peter's denying of them. Overall I was impressed.

 

I intend to go to St Mary's Castle Street this evening. I fear we may have lost the pub historian. I went to his local on Thursday. He was not there, but I overheard two locals, one of whom I know to be his friend, murmuring about someone who was either very ill or had died. On the way out I saw his friend looking into space. I will find out this evening, no doubt.

 

Edit: the vicar says he is fine, just away on holiday.

Edited August 20, 2023 by KEV67

[poppy]

You're certainly getting to experience a wide range of churches. It's interesting to hear about the differences. I knew nothing about Christadelphians.

Glad the pub historian is still alive and kicking 😄

[KEV67]

The Christadelphians are more like what I thought the Unitarians were like. I think maybe the Unitarians were like the Christadelphians generations ago. Wikipedia tells me the Christadelphians reject the Holy Trinity and the pre-existence of Christ. That would make them like the Arian Church. There was a big conference in 325 about whether Arius was right or Athanasius of Alexandria was right. The Athanasian view won by a landslide and the Arians were declared heretics. When I was more religious than I am now, this bothered me because Nicean Creed did not really match up with what I read in the Bible, and I wondered where they got the extra information, and why was it considered valid. Also according to Wikipedia, the Christadelphians do not believe in an afterlife, at least not one that starts immediately after death. I think they believe in an earthly resurrection following the second coming. Actually, the exact nature of the Resurrection and the afterlife always puzzled me too. The Bible is not very consistent. The Old Testament Jews supposedly did not believe in an afterlife at all. But even they are not very consistent.

[KEV67]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:03 PM, Anna Faversham said:

I've just come across this thread and found it fascinating. I write historical novels mostly and in each one there is a character such as a parson who provides a sounding board or 'good advice' to those who need it and boy do they need it! Oddly, the C of E parson, who behaves more like a Methodist or Baptist, is one of the most liked characters. In one book, I focus on the Quakers, and in my latest I have brought in The Salvation Army. I'm having fun!

 

I wonder what your latest visits have thrown up, Kevin.

In what way does your C of E parson behave more like a Methodist or Baptist?

[France]

20 hours ago, KEV67 said:

In what way does your C of E parson behave more like a Methodist or Baptist?

Possibly the living belongs to the Martyrs Memorial Trust like the living of the church in the village where I grew up. They were closely allied to the Methodists and the services were very low indeed

[KEV67]

I am running out of churches to go to in my area. The ones that are left are a bit out of my comfort zone. There are the Seventh Day Adventists. Their church is actually the one closest to me, but I would be the only white person there. There are the Mormons. I would be wary going there. There are several Orthodox churches, but they all speak foreign languages. I went into a Greek Orthodox service once. They were renting an Anglican church and I got my times wrong. There is a Romanian Orthodox church at the bottom of the hill who share another Anglican church.

 

I attended the evening service at St Mary's Castle Street, Church of England (Continuing). The vicar's wife was not there. The pub historian was doing her job of handing out the prayer books and taking the collection. Not that there were many people to collect from. Apart from the organist (who is improving) the vicar, and the pub historian, there was myself and two Hong Kong Chinese couples. Someone came in about half way through, but did not listen to the whole service. The vicar told me he opened the door to the pew, kneeled and crossed himself, but then the door closed, so he opened it again and knelt and crossed himself again, and that this happened about four times. Then he left without taking his cap. The vicar referred to Jacob wrestling with the angel again, then about an expedition to find the source of the Nile. He had a bit of a rant against some of the other churches. He did not say which ones, but I suspect the Church of England, and possibly some of the churches who play a lot of music and appeal to the kids. He said just because a church was well attended it was spiritually full, and neither alas was a poorly attended church. I wondered what the Chinese couples made of that. I had not seen them before. I wonder if I will again.

Edited August 28, 2023 by KEV67

[KEV67]

Only went to one church today, the Church for bigots on Castle St. The vicar did say something in his sermon which troubled me a bit. He said there was a parade of sin through town the day before. I wondered if he meant there had been a gay pride march. I looked it up on the interweb, and there had been something like that. I don't think I will tell my lesbian friend about that; she would not be happy. On the other hand, St Mary's Minster about 100 yards away from there is displaying a LGBTQAI+ banner again, as well as refugees welcome banners.

[KEV67]

I went to St Mary's on Castle Street in the evening. The vicar and his wife were on holiday, so his deputy was delivering the sermon. There were only four of us. About forty minutes into the service, someone came off the street and approached the collection plate. The deputy said "Excuse me, Sir". The man, who sounded east European said he wanted to contribute. The sermon continued. The east European messed about with the contribution envelopes and left. At the end of the service the deputy vicar walked straight to the collection plate and said he had taken some of the money. The brass neck of some people.

[KEV67]

I went to St Mary's yesterday evening. The vicar and his wife were back from holiday. Also back was the thief, but only two other people. I was not sure it was him. I wanted to warn the vicar's wife who normally stands close to the collection plate and hands out the books. However I was late and the service had already started. I put my £20 in an envelope and put it on the collection plate and took a pee behind the suspected thief. Late on in the service he got up to leave, went to speak to the vicar's wife, then switched the envelopes on the plate and left. I saw him do it, but I cannot really rugby tackle someone during a service. So, I expect there will be a different system for taking the collection next time.

[poppy]

What a cheek! I hope someone stops him if he tries a third time. I bet your church isn't the only one he's tried it on either!

[KEV67]

The thief did not return this time. Eight people present in total including the vicar, the vicar's wife and the organist. In the sermon the vicar referred to woman bruising the serpent's head and the serpent bruising the woman's heel. What does that mean? He has said it before. A bruise would not be so bad, but I would not want to be bitten by one if it was poisonous. He also had another bit of a rant against other religions. He said Muslims believed they would go to heaven and get allotted 98 virgins; Buddhists would achieve Nirvana; Native Americans their happy hunting ground, but he had particular scorn for the Church of England who appeared to believe everyone would get to heaven no matter how bad they were. I thought about my brother. He was not very God fearing. I have to hope God is more merciful than he is sometimes reported to be in scripture. Then the vicar said maybe people did not want to get good and fix their sinful habits. Again I felt slightly uneasy. I had watched an artistic Spanish film only a couple of nights before. Still religious perfection is difficult to achieve and I am not bothering trying to this time around.

[KEV67]

I think I was particularly welcome on Sunday's evening service at St Mary's. Apart from the vicar, the organist and the vicar's daughter there was only me in the congregation. The organist did not really need to be there neither as we did not bother with the unsingable hymns. Usually the pub historian is there, but I learnt from his local that he is on a real ale pub crawl or festival in Manchester.

[Anna Faversham]

Ouch! This is heart breaking, Kev.

 

I always have a vicar or similar person in my books, a sort of central person who can drop in wise words when they're needed. A bit like G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown stories. In the current one that I am writing, the poor young vicar, just starting out, has only a handful in his congregation. He starts welcoming newcomers to the neighbourhood and little by little the congregation increases. The heroine, a non churchgoer, finds herself in need of something only he can do.

 

I've made it so that it could be a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, or similar sort of church.

 

Maybe by now, Kev, the congregation will have increased. Hope so, because the church represents so many cultural values as well as the spiritual ones.

[KEV67]

Hopefully the morning services are a bit better attended.

[poppy]

On 1/13/2024 at 4:31 AM, Anna Faversham said:

Ouch! This is heart breaking, Kev.

 

I always have a vicar or similar person in my books, a sort of central person who can drop in wise words when they're needed. A bit like G.K. Chesterton's Father Brown stories. In the current one that I am writing, the poor young vicar, just starting out, has only a handful in his congregation. He starts welcoming newcomers to the neighbourhood and little by little the congregation increases. The heroine, a non churchgoer, finds herself in need of something only he can do.

 

I've made it so that it could be a Baptist, Methodist, Anglican, or similar sort of church.

 

Maybe by now, Kev, the congregation will have increased. Hope so, because the church represents so many cultural values as well as the spiritual ones.

 

Your latest book sounds really good, Anna. Let us know when it's published 😊

 

4 hours ago, KEV67 said:

Hopefully the morning services are a bit better attended.

 

Have you been back since October, Kev?

[KEV67]

I have been back a number of times. I have stopped going to other churches. My son was born in Georgia in December so I have been there. I am currently back in Blighty, but I intend to go back soon. It is mostly Georgian Orthodox out there. There are not many Anglican congregations. I have been worrying how to introduce my son to my vicar if I ever manage to get him back.  I cannot see him approving of surrogacy. I think he is more likely to excommunicate me.

[poppy]

I think members of the clergy, if following the teachings of Jesus, should not be condemning anyone. 

 

Georgia looks a very beautiful country.

[lunababymoonchild]

15 hours ago, KEV67 said:

I have been back a number of times. I have stopped going to other churches. My son was born in Georgia in December so I have been there. I am currently back in Blighty, but I intend to go back soon. It is mostly Georgian Orthodox out there. There are not many Anglican congregations. I have been worrying how to introduce my son to my vicar if I ever manage to get him back.  I cannot see him approving of surrogacy. I think he is more likely to excommunicate me.

Don't tell him he's a surrogate baby

[KEV67]

5 hours ago, lunababymoonchild said:

Don't tell him he's a surrogate baby

What should I tell him?

[KEV67]

11 hours ago, poppy said:

I think members of the clergy, if following the teachings of Jesus, should not be condemning anyone. 

 

Georgia looks a very beautiful country.

I have only seen Tbilisi.  Some parts of Tbilisi are nice, cobbled streets, old churches and castles. Other parts of the city are a bit half built, with no pavements. It is a mix of poor and reasonably well off. In general I like the Georgians, but the service is not always great.

[lunababymoonchild]

56 minutes ago, KEV67 said:

What should I tell him?

Forgive me, I'm not a church goer and not at my best just now either. I'd introduce your son and I assume everything else is none of the clergy's business. He can accept the baby or not. Or tell him you adopted.

[KEV67]

8 minutes ago, lunababymoonchild said:

Forgive me, I'm not a church goer and not at my best just now either. I'd introduce your son and I assume everything else is none of the clergy's business. He can accept the baby or not. Or tell him you adopted.

I was thinking of concocting a cock and bull story about having impregnated a woman, who would not or could not marry me. She would have aborted the baby but I begged her not to, promising to look after the baby myself. After a bad start I would look like a hero.

[lunababymoonchild]

47 minutes ago, KEV67 said:

I was thinking of concocting a cock and bull story about having impregnated a woman, who would not or could not marry me. She would have aborted the baby but I begged her not to, promising to look after the baby myself. After a bad start I would look like a hero.

A clergyman would know that any woman in this day and age would just have an abortion, imho. You could say that your son was born in a foreign country, which is true, but his mother did not survive the birth. Or that you adopted him in a foreign country.  If you have to say anything at all

Edited January 21 by lunababymoonchild