Going to church?

[Hayley]

That sounds like an interesting but slightly confusing experience, overall! I know different branches of Christianity have differences in the Lord's prayer, but I've never seen one just completely change all the words like that... maybe they thought it would make more sense to people? They didn't want them to think it was literally about just bread? 

 

It sounds like your mum was a lovely person  

[KEV67]

She has her good and her bad side. Well, her good and her difficult side to be more accurate. She once stayed up all night to care for a pair of dying hamsters when me and my brother were children. 

[KEV67]

I attended the Unitarians this afternoon. There was a bit of excitement, because it looked like a relatively young couple (under 40) were going to join us, but they had obviously made a mistake. Then the service was delayed a minute while the government sent us all a practice emergency message on our phones. Once that excitement was over the service started. The theme was on the Zero Sum Game. I thought it was going to be a left wing diatribe, so I was surprised when it turned out to be a defence of classical economics, of the sort espoused by John Locke, Adam Smith and David Ricardo. It was still a little lefty, because the preacher said those who tended towards zero sum thinking tended to be afraid of something, for example, free trade and immigration. All the same I never thought I'd hear a defence of neoliberalism at a religious meeting. 

[Anna Faversham]

I'm surprised too but as I wasn't there, I can't be too critical as perhaps there was a nugget or two of wisdom that's helpful.

[KEV67]

I have not attended any churches recently. This is in part because the URC I have been going to isn't a great place to take a toddler. I don't really want to leave Little Adrian with my mother for too long, because she has things she wants to do, and she gets exasperated with Adrian's naughtiness. However, yesterday was the first Sunday of the month, so I went to the Unitarians in the afternoon. I took Adrian to the park first. He never goes to sleep on the way out, because he is excited about the swings, but he usually goes to sleep on the way back. Worked out this time. He fell asleep in Caffè Nero, then stayed asleep through the Unitarian service, despite the loudness of the organ playing. He woke up briefly about half way through, but then went to sleep again. The theme of the service was how the Unitarians would change if they started off afresh. The pastor said a lot would stay the same. They would still ditch all the theological doctrine, but would stay committed to social justice and equity. This annoyed me a bit. If a church has no theological doctrine, why should it be prescriptive on political doctrines? I am not committed to social justice or equity myself. I do not think it is up to the government to equalise any advantages parents might strive to give to their children. I do not think the government should take the father's place to provide for his children, in theory, anyway. Similarly, I think children have a responsibility to look after their aged parents, although that is often difficult. I didn't say any of that. I stayed behind for tea and biscuits. They cooed over Adrian. I was talking to one of them. I told her how in Reading some pagan from Earth Spirit turned up. I had been surprised by that, because Unitarianism had derived from Protestant Christianity, although it is not really Christian now. She said that when she first attended a Unitarian meeting, someone introduced himself as an Atheist, which she seems to be herself. That made me wonder why she bothered turning up at all, but I have wondered that at other churches, because many do not seem very orthodox. We were told next month's theme will be rivers. One of the old ladies said she thought about the Mersey. She remembered being a young girl and her father urging her to walk along the gang plank to the ferry, which had gaps along each side. She is 80 now. I expect I might say something about the Thames. The Thames along Reading was very pretty, and I used to envy the rowers. I once spent two days swimming from the source of the Thames in an organised activity holiday.

Edited October 6 by KEV67

[lunababymoonchild]

I was under the impression that the Unitarian Church welcomed all, pagans included.

[KEV67]

On 10/6/2025 at 2:44 PM, lunababymoonchild said:

I was under the impression that the Unitarian Church welcomed all, pagans included.

I think so. They cannot stop you from attending and unless you are obnoxious they will talk to you over tea and biscuits at the end.

[lunababymoonchild]

8 minutes ago, KEV67 said:

I think so. They cannot stop you from attending and unless you are obnoxious they will talk to you over tea and biscuits at the end.

Jolly civilised

[KEV67]

I went to the local United Reform Church this morning. I brought Little Adrian with me. I told the lady handing out hymn books I'd take him out if he started getting noisy, but she said not to worry. He started making a noise, but then I gave him a bottle of milk and he fell asleep. I reckon he reduced the average age of the the congregation by three-and-a-half years. I counted twenty or twenty-one people in the congregation and I reckoned the average age was 70 (being generous). 70 years/20 congregants=3.5 years per congregant, rounding the figures a bit.

We had a lady preacher this time. Her sermon was about doubts, concentrating on Doubting Thomas, and Peter when he lost his nerve walking on water. At one point the pastor asked if we didn't all sometimes have doubts. Everyone kept schtum. This made me think back. I received a Gideon bible at school, which converted me from Atheism to Christianity when I was twelve. When I started reading I was expecting it to be like an Arthurian legend, but the way it was written made Jesus seem like a real person. As I grew older I started to have more doubts because of inconsistencies, unbelievable bits, and things I just did not agree with. I noticed that the more believable bits were events that happened in front of crowds, while the most outrageous miracles were only witnessed by his Apostles.

I once read a book on the origins of Christianity, which said that as far as Jesus's mission was concerned, the first three gospels were to be preferred, but that regarding the events leading up to the crucifixion John's gospel was to be preferred. St John seems to have had source to some extra information regarding the crucifixion, despite his gospel having been written later than the others. I read another book on the origins of Christianity which said John's Gospel was the most Christologically developed of the four. I think it is the one with many of the most outrageous miracles. There was lots of faith healing in the Synoptic Gospels, but not so much walking on water and turning water into wine. 

I had a problem singing one of the hymns. I could not reach the high notes, so I tried starting off deeper, but still had trouble reaching the top notes. There was some music written above the verse, and according to that lowest note was E and the highest was D. That is just one octave, isn't it? In honesty I have no idea which notes I am singing, or the key. I am pretty vague what 'key' means in music. I have been trying to learn the tin whistle at home, and the piece I have been trying to play goes from lower D to upper F, and I am able to sing the words to that.

[Madeleine]

Interesting about your singing, I'm in a choir despite not being a very good singer - they take anyone in my choir! - and have been put in the tenor section, which is a pretty low singing group, and even though I can't reach any top notes sometimes the lower notes are too low for me, so you might find yourself switching tones, or keys, depending in what you're singing at the time.  I have no idea which notes I'm singing either, I can read basic music but that's about it.  The main thing is you should be comfortable with how you're singing, you don't want to damage your voice.

[KEV67]

I took Little Adrian to the local United Reform Church. It was a different pastor this time. They seem to have a rota of pastors at this church. I was a little concerned Adrian might be disruptive to proceedings. I gave him a bottle of milk, which kept him quiet for the first half of the service. I gave him vegetable straws and other snacks after that, although that did not prevent him giving a running commentary on the service. There were two visitors from the Anglican cathedral on some sort of inter-church thing. The pastor reminded them that the Congregationalist Church, as it was before they united with the Presbyterian Church, had their first female leader in 1916. He asked whether anyone understood what 'Ecclesia semper reformanda est' meant. One old lady at the back said, 'The church should always change.' She must have paid attention in school. Then a woman from the congregation read a passage from the bible, but it was the wrong passage. So then she read the right passage, which was about a Pharisee who prayed that he was glad he was not a wrongdoer like the tax collector next to him. The tax collector prayed for forgiveness. Jesus commended the tax collector and censured the Pharisee. I was not surprised. Jesus had a real problem with Pharisees. After the service I went for tea and biscuits with the others. They all said they liked Adrian being there and did not mind his childish noise.

Edited October 19 by KEV67

[poppy]

That's really good they're welcoming to children 😊

And full marks to the elderly lady for her knowledge of Latin!

[KEV67]

I went back to the United Reformed Church in Bury St Edmunds. It seems like URC churches are not named after saints. We had another female pastor this time. She appeared interested in wars around the world and social justice issues. I brought Adrian. He was quite noisy, but they told me afterwards he was not bother.

[KEV67]

I went back to the United Reformed Church in Bury St Edmunds. It seems like URC churches are not named after saints. We had another female pastor this time. She appeared interested in wars around the world and social justice issues. I brought Adrian. He was quite noisy, but they told me afterwards he was not bother. However one of the elders recalled there was a couple that came to the church because they were put off by the children in the church they used to attend. This made me wonder. The congregation is very elderly, so one would think they would want some children so that the church did not die out. But perhaps what happens is that most their recruits are elderly to start with. I was talking to one of the regulars and said I was interested in having Adrian christened. He said he'd talk to one of the elders. 

Yesterday I took Adrian to an Epic Dad event (carpet bowls and mini golf). Epic Dad is a charity which helps single fathers. I told the organiser I took Adrian to church, but that they had no child provision. He said he went to the Beacon Church, also in Bury St Edmunds, which does. This puts me in a bit of a quandary.  Personally I am not into happy clappy, very child-oriented churches, but I suspect Adrian would prefer them when he gets a bit older. He would probably prefer them to listening to someone drone on about why the tax collector's prayer found favour and the Pharisee's did not. The poor old Pharisees could never do anything right, while the Samaritans could never do anything wrong. 

Edited October 27 by KEV67

[Anna Faversham]

Sorry to have missed so much of this interesting thread - I've been out of touch with all-things-internet, travelling.

 

I was particularly interested in the fact that it was a Gideon's Bible that caused you to examine the truth of Christianity. I'm fascinated to learn how people first find out about God. 

 

Older people can find it difficult to adjust when their usually quiet church suddenly has an infant wanting to speak and play (which is a good thing for infants to be doing!).

 

If I were you (and, of course, I'm not) I'd pray frequently, maybe even bother God daily, to ask where he would like you to go. There's the story of someone bothering Jesus to heal them and so he did! As we all have the opportunity of talking to the creator of the Universe, we should take it! Yes?????

 

A difficult decision - putting Adrian's needs before your overriding need to find the right place to learn more about who God really is. 

 

I agree with Poppy's last comment!

 

Cheering you on!

 

 

[poppy]

I don't think the church you choose to go to is going to make much difference to Adrian at this stage. Perhaps go to whichever one you feel comfortable with for now and reconsider when Adrian is a bit older. You'll probably want one with a creche and Sunday School later on.

[Hayley]

It might not actually be a children's mass at the other church. I have to admit, I don't know much about the United Reformed Church, but the catholic church we go to is really friendly towards kids. On Sundays there's a children's liturgy, where they can go over to an attached room and do fun activities like colouring (the school-age ones, anyway). If you have a young child being really noisy, there's an area you can stand in that has speakers, so you can still hear what the priest is saying, but the baby noise isn't stopping other people from being able to hear. The mass is a normal one though, not an actual children's mass.

[KEV67]

I took Adrian back to the United Reformed Church, but it did not go well. Adrian thinks we are going to the park to play on the swings when I take him into town, so he was dissappointed to be taken into a church. He started crying and would not stop. I took him outside, where one of the elders said she would unlock the church hall for us. I stayed in the church hall for the rest of the service. Adrian would not stop crying. First the elder came back and made me a cup of coffee. Then the others came in. I askee the elder about the possibility of having Adrian christened there. She pointed out the secretary and I talked to her. I was a bit surprised. I thought a church would rip my arm off to christen a child. She said that at present the church did not have a minister, although that could be got around. She said she would have to talk to me to ascertain why I wanted Adrian to be christened and to inform me of my responsibilities. Then she said there would have to be a church meeting to discuss it. She gave me her contact numbers and invited me to phone her about it later. I have to say I wonder about the future of the United Reformed Church. I went to three in Reading. Two had very elderly congregations. The other had a much younger congregation due to its immigrant community. The church in Bury St Edmunds is very elderly and they do not have a minister currently. The Anglican church I used to go to in the 80s had an elderly congregation. Maybe people start to return to the church when they become elderly. The congregation if the United Reformed Church in Bury St Edmunds will likely have mostly died in ten years' time, and so far as I can tell, they are not welcoming many children into the church. 

Another thing I have been wondering is how did churches deal with screaming children back in the old days. Did they just put up with it? Did someone stay home with the little ones and go to the evening service? The best system I saw was when I attended a Greek Orthodox service in Reading. The priest went through the ceremony, wafted the incense and pinged the bells, but the children were allowed to play. I can't see children just being allowed to play, for instance run up the aisles or up the stairs at most churches.

[lunababymoonchild]

I thought they’d rip your arms off to christen your son too.

 

My mother took us to church when we were small, I was six, my brother three. My father refused to go. There was what we called Sunday School then where the children were taken out of the main church and taught Christian things in an adjoining hall. This was more than fifty years ago and I haven’t been back since (I refused to go when I was six, on the grounds that my daddy didn’t go so I didn’t have to. I hated it) so don’t know if that’s done today - with all the child abuse allegations I’d be surprised if that practice continued. 
 

I did go to Chapel for a friend’s wedding around twenty years later and a baby there was allowed to scream through the whole service (I would have taken the baby out. It appeared that I was the only one who was irritated by that).

 

As an adult I would not be prepared to let my child out of my sight while at church, so there’s that too. I wonder if it would be prudent to wait until Adrian is a little older and better able to refrain from crying all the time to attend church on a regular basis. Or read him some stories/watch a tv programme on the subject to get him familiar with a church atmosphere, or visit when there isn’t a service. He obviously didn’t feel comfortable and that’s why he cried.

[Anna Faversham]

I think it helps a small child to see other children at their church too. Perhaps one with a Sunday school for older children and one that welcomes smaller children's chatter (so long as it is not too loud). Perhaps take several picture and colouring books? Not noisy toys! And with Christmas coming up, a church with children will be  quite exciting for Adrian. Oh I do hope you find somewhere that suits you both.

 

You could ask Chat GPT to give you all the churches in your area, just in case you've missed one.