The Damned United

[KEV67]

I am reading this. I saw the film with Michael Sheen and Timothy Spall. I think I enjoyed the film more than I am enjoying the book. It is a remarkable book, nevertheless. I am not sure how this book should be categorised, because it is based on real people and events, but it is somewhat fictionalised. I know Brian Clough's son Nigel hated it, and did not think it was a fair reflection of his father. David Peace could not really describe what was going through Brian Clough's mind. 

[itsmeagain]

Red or Dead, Peace' encyclopaedia sized chronicle of Liverpool FC under Shankly, is similarly turgid reading. I will eventually complete my reading of both.

Edited December 8, 2023 by itsmeagain

[KEV67]

I think this book is a bit like In Cold Blood by Truman Capote, which he described as a non-fiction novel. Maybe it is a bit like The Crown series, which I have not watched. Quite a lot of The Crown must be conjecture, because most of those conversations were private and not recorded. They were possibly jizzed up a bit. Most novels are a mix of fact and fantasy. Novels may be based on real events and modelled on real people. Some books and plays about real historical people are almost complete myth. However, with books like In Cold Blood and The Damned United, readers might be tempted to believe it is all true. In the Damned United, there are a lot of stats and facts, and I expect most of them are true. But some important facts might not be. Certainly the thoughts going through Brian Clough's mind cannot be stated as fact. His relationship with Peter Walker might have been somewhat different. In the film there was a clip from a local TV programme where the presenter surprises Brian Clough by bringing on Don Revie. This was just after Brian Clough was sacked as Leeds Manager. The Damned United film version and the local TV sports programme version were similar to start with, but then the film version was dramatically enhanced towards the end. This is the sort of thing that is a bit controversial. I suppose this is how myths have always been made.

[KEV67]

I think this book is a bit like In Cold Blood by Truman Capote, which he described as a non-fiction novel. Maybe it is a bit like The Crown series, which I have not watched. Quite a lot of The Crown must be conjecture, because most of those conversations were private and not recorded. They were possibly jizzed up a bit. Most novels are a mix of fact and fantasy. Novels may be based on real events and modelled on real people. Some books and plays about real historical people are almost complete myth. However, with books like In Cold Blood and The Damned United, readers might be tempted to believe it is all true. In the Damned United, there are a lot of stats and facts, and I expect most of them are true. But some important facts might not be. Certainly the thoughts going through Brian Clough's mind cannot be stated as fact. His relationship with Peter Walker might have been somewhat different. In the film there was a clip from a local TV programme where the presenter surprises Brian Clough by bringing on Don Revie. This was just after Brian Clough was sacked as Leeds Manager. The Damned United film version and the local TV sports programme version were similar to start with, but then the film version was dramatically enhanced towards the end. This is the sort of thing that is a bit controversial. I suppose it is the start 

[KEV67]

Another thing that struck me is just how tough football management is. As a manager you are under massive pressure to get results all the time. The toughest thing is sacking players, telling them they won't play again, trying to sell them on or move them out. Maybe it is tougher with players who you like and have served you well than players you personally dislike. Cloughie has a heck of a task with that Leeds team. I doubt any manager could have done it. The team needed rebuilding.

[itsmeagain]

Kev do you.mean Peter Taylor? Rather than Walker...

Edited December 9, 2023 by itsmeagain

[KEV67]

I seem to recall hearing Cloughie say the Leeds board should have backed him. Difficult to say. Someone in the books says Johnny Giles was promised the job but didn't get it because Billy Bremner's nose was out out of joint. I wonder how he would have got on. He might have managed their decline a bit better. I think possibly Cloughie was right and the board should have backed him. It is pretty difficult when the fans all hate you too.

[KEV67]

2 minutes ago, itsmeagain said:

Kev do you.mean Peter Taylor? Rather than Walker...

Yes, Peter Taylor. In the film he was played by Timothy Spall. Martin Sheen was a lot like Brian Clough, but Timothy Spall did not seem very much like Peter Taylor. I have only watched a couple of clips of Peter Taylor on YouTube. He seemed like a cross between Captain Peacock and Arthur Daley. He had a slight military bearing. Apart from being a great judge of talent, I suspect he was the good cop to Clough's bad cop. Quite a lot is made of Clough not telling Taylor about his pay rises. Fair enough, but while it was a great partnership, it was not an equal partnership. Clough had the tougher job. 

[KEV67]

I read on the internet an interview given by Peter Lorimer. Some of Clough's demands sounded like bullying and rather unreasonable. On the other hand, the Derby County players loved him, even though he sometimes tore strips off them. I have not heard of players writing to the board to reinstate a manager before, or threatening to go on strike.

 

I missed the hey day of Clough. I lived in Long Eaton when I was about six or seven. At school all the kids used to chant "Derby County". That would have been about 1974 so Dave Mackay was probably in charge by then. Most of that went over my head. I hated the daily humiliation of football. I became aware of Brian Clough in the 80s and 90s. I always used to like that side with Franz Car, Neil Web, Des Walker, Garry Parker, Nigel Clough, Stuart Pearce, Roy Keane, etc.

 

Brian Clough's behaviour was odd sometimes. He had a player called Jemson who would not follow tactics. He'd run with the ball rather than pass it. Clough reported punched Jemson in the stomach in the changing room. There was another occasion during a pitch invasion when he clouted a number of the invaders. Old school was Clough.