Kell Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm busy reading The Chocolate Lovers' Club by Carole Matthews. I don't usually go for Chick-lit, but lately I've been completely unable to focus on or finish books, so I thought I'd give something lighter a try and this is proving just the ticket! It's light, funny and heartwarming, and the characters aren't all Bridget Jones-y (i.e. they're not completely incompetent twits - they're very real women with real problems and a love of chocolate). I'm really enjoying it and it's putting me back on track for reading again, which is fantastic, because I was beginning to feel a bit down about not being able to get down to much reading over the last few months! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted March 28, 2008 Author Share Posted March 28, 2008 I'm glad you like it Kell.. I think it's her best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen1 Posted March 29, 2008 Share Posted March 29, 2008 Yeah I loved that book too and have the sequel waiting to be read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icecream Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I don't usually read chic-lit, but they can make a nice light alternative. I like something with a little more depth than these romance books you see though. I enjoyed Karma a lot because it had a sense of reality, and showed some real problems, while the main character completely turned herself around and became more independant. I have also read books by men that are very light reads and look a bit like chic-lit, but also have a male perspective and a more rounded view of the world (the world in the story). I think that a lot of books are classed as chic-lit because they are light reads, but are not strictly chic-lit books. Maybe we need to come up with a few more genres, or have sub genres. Genre, and the use of it was something I started thinking about when writing my music dissertation. If i had thought of it earlier i could have done my whole dissertation on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I'm busy reading The Chocolate Lovers' Club by Carole Matthews. I'm glad you like it Kell.. I think it's her best. Yeah I loved that book too and have the sequel waiting to be read. I just finished it this morning and went straight onto Green Metropolis to order the sequel! Loved it, loved it, LOVED IT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 is that meant to be a John Barrowman impression? (Personally, I didn't think the sequel was quite as good.. but that really is just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esiotrot Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I have just written a wee bit about Poisoned Cherries by Quintine Jardine http://www.bookclubforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4650&page=2 and described it as Ladlit - I am sure I had never heard the term before - probably have read it somewhere and stored it in my subconscious. Then I read this thread.... bang goes me being original LOL! KX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Well, my criticisms of the genre are well-reported, but I may as well contribute to this thread to make my feelings clear and to show it's not just random hate, but there's a reason for my gripes: In actual fact, it's not the entire genre I dislike; if it were, I wouldn't read it. What I object to is the heavy reliance on coincidence as a plot device. Chick-lit tends to fall back on this more than any other I read - and I read them all, apart from Westerns. (No reason; such just doesn't grab me). Forgive me for sounding arrogant but I read well over 100 books a year, sometimes close to 150, so I know of what I speak. Of course we bump into people we know in town when we go shopping. Of course we think of someone and they phone us. Of course we tidy up the house and come across a letter someone wrote months ago which we never got around to reading at the time for some reason. But not as often as chick-lit would have us believe! Coincidences happen in real life but when they're used to pull plot threads together, the author takes the responsibility for the progression of the story out of the hands of the characters, thereby turning them into passive Everymen (or Everywomen). If things happen to the characters rather than being caused by them, there's no need for character development. They could be anyone. They're ciphers. A case in point is Becky Bloomwood in the Shopaholic books - she doesn't change from one book to the next. She doesn't learn anything, or grow. Why? Because things happen to her. She isn't pro-active. She doesn't decide the story resolution - fate does. (Or rather, Sophie Kinsella). She (Becky, I mean!) gets out of her allegedly-hilarious scrapes by the skin of her teeth. Sheer chance provides her with a way out of her difficulties, and an escape from having to actually grow up and stop being so damn selfish! And this is why I dislike her so vehemently. She's a woman in her late twenties who learns absolutely nothing throughout the course of five books. And that's what characters are supposed to do - they are supposed to change. If they don't change, there's no story to tell. It's just a series of events which mean nothing, have no moral. Now in fiction, characters should be what (or rather, who) move the action along because unlike real life, fiction must make sense. Random events happen in reality, true, but in a novel? Coincidences signpost the presence of the author and the author has no business showing himself in the story. It has to progress, have a visible story-arc. It's all very well saying, "This happened in real life!" That's all well and good but fiction isn't supposed to closely represent real life - it's supposed to give the impression of truth. In fact you could say fiction is about truth - not cold, hard facts. Not a shopping list of 'this happened, then this happened, then this happened', but the deeper truth about the human condition, to use a fiddley phrase. Now I know - chick-lit is supposed to be fun, light, escapist - that's true. I agree wholeheartedly. We can't read Tolstoy all the time. But that's no excuse for it not to be well-written. 'Escapist', however, doesn't mean 'completely unrealistic' - I'd say it means 'like my own life but jacked-up a notch; could happen to me on a really-good day'. It's strange, because on the one hand I'm saying it's completely unrealistic to pepper your books with coincidence, and yet on the other I'm criticising authors who say "This happened in real life, so I can write about it." So which is it? Do I want my books to be based on real life, or fantastical? A combination of both. If you relate weird events which happened to you or someone you know, a reader could think, "Well that's very nice but it could never happen to me because such events are very, very rare." If you write a book which is completely made up and in which coincidence gets the characters out of scrapes, the reader could think, "Well that's very nice but it could never happen to me because such events are very, very rare." In real life, coincidence happens. We know that. Life is random. Fiction is not. The author should be in control. Life doesn't make sense. Fiction always should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 Well, my criticisms of the genre are well-reported, Really? How do you classify 'chick lit' then? For you, is it only the books about young single women, or most of 'women's fiction'? I've been reading quite a few books about older women, the ones facing marriage, divorce, children, abortions.. etc. As far as I can see, many of them do seem to have character development. Do you enjoy these sort? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen1 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 prospero - I know you're a writer and as you seem to like reading chick lit (even if you don't always seem to enjoy it) have you ever thought about trying to write a chick lit book yourself? The only reason why I ask is that you seem to have a real hang-up with the whole coincidence thing - and in some cases I agree that it is annoying when it happens all the time - but as it annoys you so much maybe you should write a chick lit book without having to rely on numerous coincidences and all that other stuff that you hate about the genre. I mean there's obviously a market for real chick lit that's more believable than what's out there just now, so why not give it a go? You never know you might write a best seller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Really? How do you classify 'chick lit' then? For you, is it only the books about young single women, or most of 'women's fiction'? I've been reading quite a few books about older women, the ones facing marriage, divorce, children, abortions.. etc. As far as I can see, many of them do seem to have character development. Do you enjoy these sort? Chick-lit in its purest sense, to me, focuses on young single women, because now there's a whole bunch of named genres which you could say are off-shoots of that - hen-lit, mum-lit, dad-lit, lad-lit... I always enjoy books which have character development however they're classified; I'm very much on the side of character-driven novels as opposed to plot-driven for the reasons given above; I strongly dislike Everyman characters in novels - I want to believe only this person could live this story. I've noticed there are a lot more books focusing on older women facing other issues and I'll happily read them - but really, it's not the genre I dislike. It honestly isn't. It's the coincidence thing (again). It could appear in any genre, I admit that. So it's not really a genre issue, but my own personal bugbear. Chick-lit is generally easier to read than many other genres, and I do read many others; it's just that this thread is about this particular one. I read science, history, biographies, children's, romance, spiritual, self-help, philosophy, psychology, 'how to write', comedy, crime, travel, you name it. So I don't just stick to one category which I appear to dislike so strongly! But really, it's not the circumstances of the characters which matter to me - I've read books on serial killers before so I don't have to have similar lives to the people about whom I read - it's just this particular plot-device, as you know, pushes my buttons! prospero - I know you're a writer and as you seem to like reading chick lit (even if you don't always seem to enjoy it) have you ever thought about trying to write a chick lit book yourself? The only reason why I ask is that you seem to have a real hang-up with the whole coincidence thing - and in some cases I agree that it is annoying when it happens all the time - but as it annoys you so much maybe you should write a chick lit book without having to rely on numerous coincidences and all that other stuff that you hate about the genre. I mean there's obviously a market for real chick lit that's more believable than what's out there just now, so why not give it a go? You never know you might write a best seller. I have done, and it got a bite from an agent. Sadly, a bite was where it ended as he asked for a partial but then knocked me back for the complete manuscript. Still, it was the closest I ever got to achieving my dream and if he liked it, then great! I wrote something aimed at women which a man liked too! Unfortunately not enough, but I can see why he felt the way he did and I'm grateful for that. I know which parts of it need work, so fingers crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicnic Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 I'll admit, I've never read a so called 'chick lit' book. I have tried a few and never go to the end of them, those have been from the library as I didn't want to waste my money. I imagine there are some very good ones on the market that are written well, but they do not appeal to me. I have very little in common with the characters in the majority of them and the focus on fashion, men, shoes and shopping isn't something I enjoy. However, if other women emotionally connect and feel that they identify with the characters, fair enough. Nothing wrong with it. There is some artless chick lit the same as there is artless horror, crime etc. I do think that it's a bit too broad a category though. As someone mentioned, we could include any book featuring young female characters in it into this genre. But the average chick lit reader is unlikely to enjoy some of these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted March 30, 2008 Author Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think it is being used too broadly - if books are labelled 'chick lit', but they go beyond the young single woman, they're going to miss an audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Like I said earlier, there are other offshoots which are becoming more well-known these days - Mum-Lit being one. Also, is it just me or has anyone else noticed the proliferation of 'yummy mummy' novels being published recently? Some even have such a phrase in the title! But I think so much chick-lit is being published that variations on a theme are bound to become so numerous they'll have to split off into their own breakaway genre eventually or so many good books will be passed over by people who are turned off by the umbrella term 'chick-lit'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~V~ Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 That's pretty well what happened with the 'Aga Sagas' isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 And bonkbusters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supergran71 Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Yummy Mummy what a silly phrase, what on earth does it mean:blush: Its enough to put me off reading a book described as such. Yuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icecream Posted March 30, 2008 Share Posted March 30, 2008 Well, my sister said I was a "yummy mummy" when I got a new hairstyle about three months after Katie was born but then I keep trying to convince her there is more to bringing up children than matching them with your handbag, to no avail. So what do we classify as chic-lit? There are a lot of different books out there. Plenty of books, I think, fall into a classic style of woman has problem, woman meets man, woman gets rescued sort of thing, and probably not many of those are read. Once you have read one, you have read them all, but there are also lots of books labelled as chic-lit that have something more to say, and do have character development, which as Michelle says, are missing out on an audience. These books obviously need another/other label(s). As has been said, there are other labels arising, but where does that leave chic-lit? What exactly is chic-lit and where is the cut-off point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 So what do we classify as chic-lit? Well, I'd say that to qualify as "proper" Chick-lit, a book would have to feature the following: - Written by a woman - Main character(s) = single women (although one or two of her friends may be married) - Must go through at least one cr*p boyfirned during the course of the book - Must have a dilemma where she must choose one man over another - Must have a happy ending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Andrea~ Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I have done, and it got a bite from an agent. Sadly, a bite was where it ended as he asked for a partial but then knocked me back for the complete manuscript. Still, it was the closest I ever got to achieving my dream and if he liked it, then great! I wrote something aimed at women which a man liked too! Unfortunately not enough, but I can see why he felt the way he did and I'm grateful for that. I know which parts of it need work, so fingers crossed. Wow Prospero, that's good going. Did you submit it to any others? Or is it still a work in progress? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 I submitted it to a few others, but it got knocked back and I got to the stage where I began to think, "It's not the magnum opus/future Booker winner/potential Hollywood blockbuster I envisioned after all." So I began writing something else instead. I might go back to it one day. And I was advised years ago never, never, never to submit a partially-complete novel, because one day you'll get a letter or phone call asking to see the rest of it and you'll have to say, "Uh...I haven't written it yet," and by the time you have finished it, the agent will have moved on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freewheeling Andy Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 What I object to is the heavy reliance on coincidence as a plot device. ... We can't read Tolstoy all the time. The funny thing is that having read War and Peace last year, chunks of it (about Natasha) are very much like Chick-Lit. And, really, it's remarkably easy to read. And it felt like Tolstoy was using coincidence quite a lot as a plot device, too. Particularly out on the battlefield where Pierre keeps meeting up with top ranking military and then accidentally with Andrei, and so on. (And apologies for being picky). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Haven't read that one - I faltered halfway through. But I've read Anna Karenina. I had flu at the time and my dad bought me a book to pass the time; bit risky buying me a novel but luckily I didn't already have it. Anyway, I was too weak to lift it so I sat it on my lap, read one page, fell asleep, woke up, read another page, slept again... Got there in the end, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nici Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 What do you classify as chick lit, what do you personally like? My view of chick lit is the modern writers like Louise Bagshawe and Celia Ahern and the like. I don't particually like these kind of books and will avoid them if at all possible. I don't think of writers like Danielle Steel as chick lit, I quite enjoy these books from time to time when I need something 'easy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2008 Share Posted May 20, 2008 (edited) Chic-lit: How To Be Lovely Chick-lit:Remember Me Edited May 20, 2008 by Guest direct linking to amazon images removed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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