Old English

[KEV67]

I have started learning Old English. It reminds me a bit of English and a bit of German. It is basically a foreign language. I am having difficulty with the pronunciation. 'ge' is pronounced 'yu' normally. 'g' tends to be pronounced 'y'. There are some strange characters that are off-putting. One is 'þ' (thorn) which is pronounced 'th'. The other is 'ð' (eth). That is pronounced as 'th' as well. I find eth particularly difficult to write. Then they tend to use the diphthong 'æ', only I am not sure it is a diphthong; it might be a vowel. The Anglo Saxons were fond of poetry and riddles, so it seems. So far the poetry has been about the natural order of things.

 

This is a extract from Maxims II:

Cyning sceal rice healdan

Cyning sceal on healle beagas dælan

Bera sceal on hæðe eald and egesfull

Ea of dune sceal flodgræg feran

Fyrd sceal ætsomne tirfæstra getrum

Wudu sceal on foldan blædum blowan

Beorh sceal on eorþan grene standan

God sceal on heofenum dæda demend

 

The king shall hold a kingdom

The king shall deal rings out in the hall

The bear shall be on the heath old and terrible

Water shall come off the hill flood grey

The host shall be together a glorious troop

The wood shall be on the earth flourishing with fruit

The mountain shall on the earth stand green

God shall in heaven judge deeds

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by KEV67
To remove hyperlinks and underlinings

[KEV67]

Still trying to study it. It is more like German than English, particularly the grammar. It has three genders and four cases. One thing I have never come across in any other language is the we-two conjugation, which Old English has in addition to the singular and the plural. Another oddity is that some words start 'hw'. For example 'hwæt' means wheat, and 'hwar' means where. I suppose just about every modern English word that starts 'wh' originally started 'hw' in Old English.

[Chrissy]

This must be such a fascinating study, but hard work. What sparked your interest in learning it?

[KEV67]

It is definitely difficult. I am currently trying to work through Complete Old English by Mark Atherton. It has an associated web site where you can play the readings. I struggle to remember the grammar. I will have to go over the grammar again.

 

https://library.teachyourself.com/id004325519

 

I have been quite interested in languages most my adult life, although my ear is not particularly good. I used to study French and German at night school. I got to a reasonable level in French and German. Then I studied Italian, but to a lower level. Then I lost interest a bit. I have worked through cassette courses in a number of languages, including Spanish, Dutch and Serbo-Croat. Those did not stick in my mind much. I worked for a Japanese company and we were encouraged to learn Japanese. I did two courses of evening classes. I have a certificate on my mantlepiece. I can just about read my name. Sometimes I can make out the writing on Japanese restaurants.

 

Recently I have started learning cultural languages. I have been studying Latin for a couple of years. That is very hard, but I am starting to understand it a bit more. I started Anglo Saxon because I am interested in the history, the culture and the religion. There are one or two cool documents I would like to be able to read eventually, including Beowulf and the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. It is interesting how English changed so much.

[KEV67]

A section from The Seafarer:

 

þæt ic gehyrde butan hlimman sæ,

iscalde wæg. Hwilum ylfete song

dyde ic me to gomene, ganetes hleoþor

ad huilpan sweg fore hleahtor wera,

mæw singende fore medo drince.

Stormas þær stanclifu beotan, þær him stearn oncwæð

isigfeþera; ful oft þæt earn bigeal

urigfeþra. Nænig hleomæga

feasceaftig ferð frefran meahte.

 

There I heard nothing but the sea resounding,

the ice cold wave. At times the song of the swan

I made my joy, the gannet's cry

and the curlew's melody for the laughter of men,

the gull singing rather than the drinking of mead.

Storms beat stone cliffs there, where the tern replied

icy-feathered; very often the eagle called back

dewy-feathered. No protecting kinsmen

could comfort the desolate spirit.

[KEV67]

Old English is more like German than English, at least in grammar, but it is not that much like German. I can read and pronounce German a lot easier than Old English.

[KEV67]

I spent years learning German, but Old English is harder. When I first started learning German I wondered whether it was actually a different language. The German for kennel was Hundehutte. The word for pork was Schweinfleisch. The pronunciation of Old English is possibly more difficult as well. The vowels were pronounced differently. I think æ is pronounced like 'ah' but I am not quite sure. 'g' is often pronounced 'y', but not always. 'c' is often pronounced 'ch'. I am not sure about 'y'. The way the texts are written down make it seem rather declamatory.

 

Anyway, I was quite interested in today's lesson. It included an account of how Vikings raided Berkshire and surrounding areas, including Reading. I will type it up later.

[KEV67]

þa hit winterlæhte, þa ferde seo fyrd ham. 7 se here com þa ofer þa Sancte Martines mæssan to his friþðstolw Whitlande 7 tylode him þær æghwær þæs ði behofedon, 7 þa to ðam middan wintran eodan him to heora gearwan feorme ut þuruh Hamtunscire into Bearrucscire to Readingdon, 7 hi a dydon heora ealdan gewunan, atendon hiora herebeacen swa hi ferdon. Wendon þa to Wealingaforda and þæt eall forswældon, 7 wæron him þa ane niht æt Ceolesige, 7 wendon him þa andlang Æscesdune to Cwicelmeshlæwe, 7 þær onbidedon beotra glypa, forðon oft man cwæp, gif hi Cwicelmeshlæw gesohton, þæt hi næfre to sæ gan ne scoldon, wendon him þa oðres weges hamwerd. þa wæs ðær fyrd gesomnod æt Cynetan, 7 hi þær togædere fengon, 7 sona þæt wered on fleame gebrohton 7 syþþan hiora herehyþe to sæ feredan, ac þær mihton geseon Wincester leode rancne here 7 unearhne ða hi be hiora gate to sæ eodon, 7 mete 7 madmas ofer .l. mila him fram sæ fetton.

 

When winter came the English army went home. And the Viking army came then at St Martin's Mass to its refuge on the Isle of Wight, and acquired there what it needed, and then at Midwinter they went to their ready feast out through Hampshire into Berkshire to Reading. And they practised their old custom and lighted their beacons as they travelled. They came to Wallingford and burned it all, and were then one night at Cholsey, and so moved along Ashdown to Cwichelm's Barrow. There they awaited the boasted threats, because it was often said that if they reached Cwichelm's Barrow, they would never get back to the sea, and they returned home by a different route. By the time the local levy was assembled at Kennet, and they came together, and at once they put the levy to flight, and afterwards they transported their plunder to sea. So there the people of Winchester could see the proud bold army as they passed their gates towards the sea, and they had taken food and money over fifty miles from the sea.

Edited November 25, 2022 by KEV67

[~Andrea~]

Wow this is so interesting. I love languages and have learned many over the years, none to a very good level though. Basic French and German in school and a bit of holiday Spanish. My most proficient is Welsh, but I'm far from fluent in that.

 

I find the history of England the etymology of words fascinating, but studying old English, well that's just another level! Very impressive!

[KEV67]

I sometimes envy Welsh and Scots who can speak Welsh and Gaelic as their mother tongue. I cannot remember hearing people speak Welsh except in tannoy announcements at Cardiff Railway Station. I have heard some people speaking Gaelic. I walked into a pub in Stornoway in Lewis and there were people speaking Gaelic. I walked straight out again. Then on the west coast of Scotland I heard some people speaking it. All the same, I think I understand why Welsh used to be discouraged in Welsh schools. Being only able to speak Welsh or Gaelic would be very limiting career wise. It does take an awful lot of effort to learn to understand, speak, read and write a language. Remember all the time in primary school when you seemed to be doing the same thing again and again. I have been trying to learn Latin for two or three years now, and I still struggle to say or write down anything. My cousins in Ireland has to study Irish for years at school, but I do not think many of them are fluent. That is why I think the people trying to resurrect Cornish will have a hard time. It is difficult to find anyone to have a conversation with in Cornish. Unless you speak it at home then if you have children they will not learn it as a mother tongue. It would be difficult to perfect your Cornish because you would not have an expert to correct you when you go wrong. With Cornish I doubt they know exactly how it was pronounced as the original Cornish speakers died out centuries ago. Still, that said, I have a Dutch friend who learnt Dutch, French, German and English at school. She said she had to read Schiller in German and Shakespeare in English. I cannot understand Shakespeare unless I read a book that explains what he means. She says all the reading she had to do at school put her off reading. There are some Dutch who speak Frisian. I do not know how they find the time. However, there are a lot of native French, German and English speakers they can talk to and a lot of resources in those languages.

Edited March 1, 2023 by KEV67

[Madeleine]

I agree with your Dutch friend re school and reading, though I love reading now, school certainly put me off it, and apart from a few "airport" novels when I went on holiday I didn't really start reading again until about 6 years after I left school.

[~Andrea~]

I had to learn Welsh in school for one year but found it much harder than French or German and dropped it as soon as I could. The teaching method was very different for Welsh than it was for French and German. Looking back I wonder if having native speakers teach you a second language is unhelpful because learning a second language is so different to learning a first. You need to have the basic grammar broken down for you. We did no grammar in Welsh; it felt like we were just learning phrases by rote. I started learning Welsh properly as an adult and the first thing I did was buy a grammar book. It was so much easier when you could understand how it fits together and then build your own sentences rather than repeating set phrases.

 

Regarding Cornish I remember watching a programme about the language revival several years ago and they said the language never truly died out because there were still some families who spoke it at home and passed it down. I hope they do manage to keep it alive. It's quite similar to Welsh apparently. And Breton, spoken in northern France, is even closer to Welsh than Cornish.

Edited March 1, 2023 by ~Andrea~

[Hayley]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:43 PM, ~Andrea~ said:

And Breton, spoken in northern France, is even closer to Welsh than Cornish.

That’s interesting, I wonder how that came about!?

 

I find the similarities between different languages interesting.
 

On 3/1/2023 at 4:44 PM, KEV67 said:

Still, that said, I have a Dutch friend who learnt Dutch, French, German and English at school. She said she had to read Schiller in German and Shakespeare in English.

Wow, that’s impressive!

[KEV67]

23 minutes ago, Hayley said:

Wow, that’s impressive!

I don't think her French is as good as her English and German. She says when she is at home she speaks a dialect of Dutch.

[KEV67]

comparison of Welsh, Cornish and Breton

 

[KEV67]

Here is a bit of Old English you might understand. It was very selectively edited.

 

Harold is swift. His hand is strong and his word grim. Late in life he went to his wife in Rome.

Is his inn open? His cornbin is full and his song is writen.

Grind his corn for him and sing me his song.

He is dead. His bed is under him. His lamb is dead and blind.

He sang for me.

He swam west in storme and winde and froste.

Bring us gold. Stand up and find wise men.

 

A Guide to Old English. Bruce Mitchell and Fred C. Robinson

[KEV67]

I found this passage from Bede's Account of the Conversion of King Edwin. Apparently Bede wrote it in Latin and someone later translated it into the English of the time,  but not very well. I cannot judge. I will have to go over it again because I have forgotten some of the words. King Edwin told Bishop Paulinus that he would have to discuss the conversion of his people to Christianity with his witan. One of the witan says life is like a sparrow that flies into a lighted hall where a feast is taking place and then out the other door into the winter.

 

þæs wordum oþur cyninges wita and ealdormann geþafunge sealde, an to þære spræce feng and þus cwæð: 'þyslic me is gesewen, þu cyning, þis andwearde lif manna on eorðan to wiðmetenesse þære tide þe us uncuð is: swylc swa þu æt swæsendum sitte mid þinum ealdormannum and þegnum on wintertide, and sie fyr onælæd and þin heall gewyrmed, and hit rine and sniwe and styrme ute; cume an spearwa and hrædlice þæt hus þurhfleo. cume þurh oþre duru in, þurh oþre ut gewite. Hwæt, he on þa tid þe he inne bið ne bið hrinen mid þy storme þæs wintres; ac þæt bið an eagan bryhtm and þæt læsste fæc, ac he sona of wintra on þone winter eft cymeð. Swa þonne þis monna lif to medmiclum fæce ætwð; hwæt þær foregange, oððe hwæt þær æfterfylige, we ne cunnun. For ðon gif þeos niwe lar owiht cuðlicre ond gerisenlicre brenge, þæs weorþe is þæt we þære fylgen.'

 

This seems like quite a stiff translation to me from a Loeb book:

 

To whose wise persuasion and words another of the king’s nobles consenting forthwith added: “Such seemeth to me, my Lord, the present life of men here in earth (for the comparison of our uncertain time to live), as if a sparrow should come to the house and very swiftly flit through; which entereth in at one window and straightaway passeth out through another, while you sit at dinner with your captains and servants. In winter-time; the parlour being then made warm with the fire kindled in the midst thereof, but all places abroad being troubled with raging tempests of winter rain and snow. Right for the time it be within the house, it feeleth no smart of the winter storm, but after a very short space of fair weather that lasteth but for a moment, it soon passeth again from winter to winter and escapeth your sight. So the life of man here appeareth for a little season, but what followeth or what hath gone before, that surely know we not. Wherefore if this new learning hath brought us any better surety, methink it worthy to be followed.

 

This is how the Venerable Bede wrote it:

 

Cuius suasioni verbisque prudentibus alius optimatum regis tribuens assensum, continuo subdidit: “Talis,” inquiens, “mihi videtur, rex, vita hominum prasens in terris, ad comparationem eius quod nobis incertum est temporis, quale cum te residente ad coenam ducibus ac ministris tuis tempore brumali, accenso quidem foco in medio et calido effecto coenaculo, furentibus autem foris per omnibus turbinibus hiemalium pluviarum vel nivium, adveniensque unus passerum dumum citissime pervolaverit qui eum per unum ostium ingrediens, mox per aliud exierit. Ipso quidem tempore quo intus est, hiemis tempestate non tangitur, sed tamen parvissimo spatio serenitatis ad momentum excurso, mox de hieme in hiemem regrediens, tuis oculis elabitur. Ita haec vita hominum ad modicum apparet; quid autem sequatur, quidve praecesserit, prorsus ignoramus. Unde si haec nova doctrina certius aliquid attulit, merito esse sequenda videtur.”

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by KEV67

[KEV67]

A couple of things puzzle me about the story. The king's thegn says that Christianity is worth believing if it explains what happens before you are born and after you die. Christianity only really says what happens after you die (and then not very consistently). Buddhism would be better if you wanted to know what happened before you were born, but I do not suppose there were many Buddhist missionaries in Britain at the timbe. Another thing that puzzles me is I thought the Saxons would have had some concept of an afterlife. Four days of the week are named after Norse Gods, so I would have thought Saxon belief would be somewhat similar. The Norse believe that if you died in battle you would be taken to either Valhalla, or another hall almost as good owned by one of the goddesses, but I cannot remember which. If you did not die in battle you want to Hel, which was a cold, dreary place, overseen by another goddess, who was probably a feminist. Then at the end of the era the Battle of Ragnarok would happen and nearly everyone would die again, this time for keeps. I suppose one problem with that religion was that there was a big incentive to be warlike, and maybe the Saxons were not into that so much.

[KEV67]

It is still not sinking in very fast, considering I try to do a bit every day. One problem is that the spelling is not very standard. Words were pronounced and thus spelt differently in different regions and times. Another problem is that all the vowels have shifted since Anglo-Saxon times. I am never sure I am pronouncing a word correctly. 

[KEV67]

I am still struggling to absorb the vocab. I have got onto the chapter about riddles and I have to look up every other word. J.R.R. Tolkein was an expert in Old English. His fiction takes place in Middle Earth, which must be derived from middangeard. Middan means middle and geard means enclosure/yard/precincts/palace grounds. The upper geard would be heofun, and the lower would be the other place. The Anglo-Saxons liked riddles, and there was a chapter called Riddles in the Dark in The Hobbit. Here is an example:

 

Ic þa wiht geseah  wæpnedcynnes.

Geoguðmyrþe grædig  him on gafol forlet

ferðfriþende   feower wellan

scire sceotan  on gesceapþeotan

Mon maþelade,  se þe me gesægde:

'Seo wiht, gif hio dedygeð, duna briceþ;

gif he tobirsteð, bindeð cwice.'

 

I saw the creature, male

Greedy of youthful delight, a gift to himself

life-sustained by four wells

resplendent thrusting on his appointed track

He made speech to me in which he said

'That creature, if he he survive, break down hill;

If he burst, bind him alive.'

 

Something a bit like that. Answer is a bull calf. The four wells refer to an udder. Thrusting on the appointed track means ploughing. The last two lines is something about a leather harness.

[KEV67]

I am still finding this Old English tough. It is taking a long time to sink in. I keep coming across the same words and I keep having to look them up. The last thing I read was The Dream of the Rood. I never knew what a rood was before. It was either a tree or a cross. The poem is a religious poem from the point of view of the cross that Jesus was crucified upon. I thought it was pretty good. I was going to post a translated version, but it is quite long. I think it was better in the original.

[KEV67]

Although I am struggling to absorb the vocab, I am getting something out of the poetry. There was a poem called The Ruin which is about some Anglo Saxon's thoughts looking around the ruins of a Roman town, which once mighty is falling to pieces. However, the poem is not complete, because sections are illegible or missing. How poignant is that? Then there was a poem called The Wife's Lament. This poor woman has to live in a cave in the woods, because her husband has banished her. She blames his relatives. I am currently reading The Wayfarer, which is about an Anglo-Saxon warrior. His lord and all his company have been killed, and he is stuck alone in a foreign country in winter. He is in a very difficult position, because he cannot just join another company. Warriors were very loyal and very attached to their lords in them days.

[KEV67]

Still soldiering on with the Old English and still making heavy weather of it. Eskimos were supposed to have 18 words for snow. Anglo-Saxon a have about a score of words for 'warrior' and a dozen for 'lord'. 

[KEV67]

I have been reading (with a great deal of help from the dictionary at the back) Wulfstan's Sermon of the Wolf to the English Nation. It is rather more interesting than the sermons I usually hear. There is a lot more about rape, murder, pillage, regicide, paganism, witchcraft, prostitution, baby killing and the rest. The most exciting thing in the sermons I usually hear is when the vicar complains about something like the Church of England's tacit support for gay marriage.