Perfect Egalitarian Squalor - NYT

[poppy]

I have every sympathy for people suffering from OCD, that's a completely different ball-game, and also people who have allergies, where a dust-free environment is a must.

I think what I've always dug my heels in about (and boy am I glad I wasn't a housewife in the 50's!) is the expectation that everything should be up to a certain standard and done in a particular way (who made these rules in the first place anyway??) I don't think this is nearly as prevalent now, but if you came from a small town here, in earlier times, you were certainly expected to conform to the norm. I would have been a social outcast I'm sure, refusing to do my laundry on Monday and having it hung out by 8am, having cake tins full at all times, floor scrubbed within an inch of it's life and all the other unwritten rules you were supposed to obey. In some ways it can be harder for modern women when they were expected to be super-women ....hold down a full-time job, raise children and keep a spotless house (often with minimal help from partner).

[Chrissy]

Spotless house? - PAH!

 

I was a lone parent (a bit like the Lone Ranger but with a chid rather than a horse  ), for many(13) years so all was on my shoulders anyway - both the 'manly' and the 'womanly' tasks. With husband we have always operated on the fairest system, so when we are both around we both do what needs to be done. Currently I am at home whilst he is out of the house 14 hours a day, so the domestic stuff rests with me.  That's fine by us both.

 

I grew up in a household where my parents just got on with things, e.g. Dad was home before Mum so he got that night's meal sorted. There was little debate about it, things just got done.

 

It is ingrained to a greater extent that the woman 'takes care' of things. The part of the article that looked at how once women went beyond the equality threshold their domestic chores increased I can well believe. It would be their way of apologising and making amends for being successful, and showing their femininity through housework. Horrifying thought isn't it?

[pontalba]

 

I've not read the article, but I just wanted to say I found it curious that Brits might find the word 'filth' funny... In a dirty way. I mean when pontalba asked if somebody could change the thread, in the Ask a Mod thread, I wondered what was the naughty word that demanded taking care of it... maybe 'NYT'?? So funny how different the dialects are...

 

  There are some that would say, YES, the NYT is a dirty word.     My husband is with you on that, frankie!

As much as I enjoy some of the New York Times articles, particularly their fashion and movie/book news.  But.  I suppose the most diplomatic way to put it is that the NYT is the most liberal, left leaning newspaper I know of.

 

 

I have every sympathy for people suffering from OCD, that's a completely different ball-game, and also people who have allergies, where a dust-free environment is a must.

I think what I've always dug my heels in about (and boy am I glad I wasn't a housewife in the 50's!) is the expectation that everything should be up to a certain standard and done in a particular way (who made these rules in the first place anyway??) I don't think this is nearly as prevalent now, but if you came from a small town here, in earlier times, you were certainly expected to conform to the norm. I would have been a social outcast I'm sure, refusing to do my laundry on Monday and having it hung out by 8am, having cake tins full at all times, floor scrubbed within an inch of it's life and all the other unwritten rules you were supposed to obey. In some ways it can be harder for modern women when they were expected to be super-women ....hold down a full-time job, raise children and keep a spotless house (often with minimal help from partner).

 

Of course it is, poppy, and I realize that they can't help themselves in most cases.  I think that "OCD" or "obsessive" is probably way over used in a loose manner in ordinary conversation by non-professionals. 

 

I live out in the country, although not close to a "small town".  I grew up in a suburb of a large city, so have never been around, or been subjected to that particular frame of mind to which you are referring.  But I have to say, my mother was a housewife in the 1950's and our house was not spotless, it was mostly, fairly neat, and the cleanliness factor was good with reference to food and the necessaries. 

 

I don't know what small minded numbskull made up those rules, but they need(ed) a serious readjustment to their thinking!  Probably a man.......

All part of the "barefoot and pregnant" brigade. 

 

Spotless house? - PAH!

 

I was a lone parent (a bit like the Lone Ranger but with a chid rather than a horse  ), for many(13) years so all was on my shoulders anyway - both the 'manly' and the 'womanly' tasks. With husband we have always operated on the fairest system, so when we are both around we both do what needs to be done. Currently I am at home whilst he is out of the house 14 hours a day, so the domestic stuff rests with me.  That's fine by us both.

 

That was my initial reaction.....

 

You sound as though you do have the fairest system...and it makes total sense. 

[frankie]

  There are some that would say, YES, the NYT is a dirty word.     My husband is with you on that, frankie!

D'oh! Not having looked at the link, I didn't know what NYT meant, and I've only just realised it's the newspaper (Tiny Finnish lesson: 'nyt' is Finnish for the word 'now'. So the title has thrown me off in many different ways )

 

As much as I enjoy some of the New York Times articles, particularly their fashion and movie/book news.  But.  I suppose the most diplomatic way to put it is that the NYT is the most liberal, left leaning newspaper I know of.

I consider myself a leftist so I wouldn't have a problem with that...

 

Anyhow, I started reading the article, and started thinking about the guys I know, guys about my age. Most of them are really clean and take good care of their apartment! Some of them are loads cleaner than some of the girls I know... Some are cleaner than me! But I have to say that the guys I'm talking about are single... So I don't know how much housework they would do if they lived with a woman. But I have a feeling they'd be just as good about it... They'd probably share the housework, more or less equally.

 

I wouldn't tolerate a guy who expected me to basically be his Mom when it comes to housework. That just doesn't fly with me.

Edited December 12, 2013 by frankie

[Kreader]

Hi Frankie,

 

I too know a few guys that clean up better than some women.  They stayed the same when they became couples.  One was with my sis.  He'd do the cooking too.  His family visited and thanked my sis for the delicious food she cooked (she had nothing to do with it but they expected it to be her job).  Neither of them corrected his family.  Sis's idea of doing the laundry would be to sort the dirty clothes out according to colour and put them in the washer/dryer, then packing the clothes away.  His idea would be similar except he'd separate the baby clothes and hand wash them since he considered them to be delicate.  He'd also iron the clothes before he put them away.  

 

On the other hand when we were with our grandparents, chores were gender orientated.  My grandmother would do all the cooking, cleaning and laundry with us children doing chores like making our beds, sometimes sweeping the floor or stairs and weeding in the garden. My grandmother hand washed the clothes before she put them in the washing machine. My grandfather would do all the DIY and house maintenance and clear our the garden.  My grandfather cooked about twice a year.  I recall smelling a nice meal in the kitchen and telling him I was hungry.  It was past lunchtime but he said wait until our grandmother got home.  He'd cook but he wouldn't serve it.  He'd also cook christmas day so my grandmother could put her feet up.

 

In my mother's home she did all the cooking, most of the cleaning and the laundry with the exception of our step father's undies, he'd wash those himself.  We children had our chores, cleaning our rooms, sometimes cleaning the sitting room or washing some dishes and the occasional cooking.  My step father would clean the fridge once a week.  My mother is a nurse and she'd be away 12 hours at a time.  My step father was a good cook after all he'd invite us all to dinner that he cooked when they were dating.  He stopped cooking the day he married our mother.  My bro rarely washed the dishes, he claimed it would affect his health because he was asthmatic.  He paid lil sis to clean his room.  It was up to him to build the dog house since this was expected of boys though he'd never done any carpentry before or had the opportunity to learn it.  My step father couldn't because he was going blind.  The dog house had a roof, walls and a floor though it was wonky and the gaps  between the floor boards were an inch wide.  The poor dog had to live in it.  When she had puppies the little puppy paws got stuck in the floor gaps and we'd have to help the puppies out.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Kreader

[Kreader]

Oh I'd just like to add that I hate ironing.  I try to avoid it if possible.  I only like ironing when I'm sewing something.  I make clothes, cushions etc.  Lil sis wasn't too fond  of cooking.  She said she'd get around that by dating a guy who likes cooking or a chef and she did 

[frankie]

Oh I'd just like to add that I hate ironing.  I try to avoid it if possible.  I only like ironing when I'm sewing something.  I make clothes, cushions etc.  Lil sis wasn't too fond  of cooking.  She said she'd get around that by dating a guy who likes cooking or a chef and she did 

 

I'm not particularly fond of cooking, either. I have to do it because it's just me, but I know what you sister means... I'd very much like to find a guy who likes to cook and is good at it I'd be happy to do the dishes if he cooked... Well, if he didn't use all the pans and pots for just one meal....

[pontalba]

D'oh! Not having looked at the link, I didn't know what NYT meant, and I've only just realised it's the newspaper (Tiny Finnish lesson: 'nyt' is Finnish for the word 'now'. So the title has thrown me off in many different ways )

 

 

I consider myself a leftist so I wouldn't have a problem with that...

 

Anyhow, I started reading the article, and started thinking about the guys I know, guys about my age. Most of them are really clean and take good care of their apartment! Some of them are loads cleaner than some of the girls I know... Some are cleaner than me! But I have to say that the guys I'm talking about are single... So I don't know how much housework they would do if they lived with a woman. But I have a feeling they'd be just as good about it... They'd probably share the housework, more or less equally.

 

I wouldn't tolerate a guy who expected me to basically be his Mom when it comes to housework. That just doesn't fly with me.

 

The only reason that is a problem with the NYT, is the simple fact that they report their opinions as news.  I don't care about their opinions, everyone has them.  I want the news to form my own opinion.  They slant, slant, and then, slant some more. I'll find out they left out elementary data of a story, only by reading about the same news item in the Washington Post. 

That is just wrong, imo.

 

 

Hi Frankie,

 

I too know a few guys that clean up better than some women.  They stayed the same when they became couples.  One was with my sis.  He'd do the cooking too.  His family visited and thanked my sis for the delicious food she cooked (she had nothing to do with it but they expected it to be her job).  Neither of them corrected his family.  Sis's idea of doing the laundry would be to sort the dirty clothes out according to colour and put them in the washer/dryer, then packing the clothes away.  His idea would be similar except he'd separate the baby clothes and hand wash them since he considered them to be delicate.  He'd also iron the clothes before he put them away.  

 

On the other hand when we were with our grandparents, chores were gender orientated.  My grandmother would do all the cooking, cleaning and laundry with us children doing chores like making our beds, sometimes sweeping the floor or stairs and weeding in the garden. My grandmother hand washed the clothes before she put them in the washing machine. My grandfather would do all the DIY and house maintenance and clear our the garden.  My grandfather cooked about twice a year.  I recall smelling a nice meal in the kitchen and telling him I was hungry.  It was past lunchtime but he said wait until our grandmother got home.  He'd cook but he wouldn't serve it.  He'd also cook christmas day so my grandmother could put her feet up.

 

In my mother's home she did all the cooking, most of the cleaning and the laundry with the exception of our step father's undies, he'd wash those himself.  We children had our chores, cleaning our rooms, sometimes cleaning the sitting room or washing some dishes and the occasional cooking.  My step father would clean the fridge once a week.  My mother is a nurse and she'd be away 12 hours at a time.  My step father was a good cook after all he'd invite us all to dinner that he cooked when they were dating.  He stopped cooking the day he married our mother.  My bro rarely washed the dishes, he claimed it would affect his health because he was asthmatic.  He paid lil sis to clean his room.  It was up to him to build the dog house since this was expected of boys though he'd never done any carpentry before or had the opportunity to learn it.  My step father couldn't because he was going blind.  The dog house had a roof, walls and a floor though it was wonky and the gaps  between the floor boards were an inch wide.  The poor dog had to live in it.  When she had puppies the little puppy paws got stuck in the floor gaps and we'd have to help the puppies out.

 

I grew up mostly with my Mother, as Father died when I was 8.  We did everything, as there was no one else to do it.  So it's difficult for me to see things as "women's work" or "man's work".  It's work that according to your strength and inclination that you are able to accomplish. 

[pontalba]

I'm not particularly fond of cooking, either. I have to do it because it's just me, but I know what you sister means... I'd very much like to find a guy who likes to cook and is good at it I'd be happy to do the dishes if he cooked... Well, if he didn't use all the pans and pots for just one meal....

 

  I don't remember the last time I ironed.  In fact, although I know we own an iron, I have no idea where it is.  Not that I want to know.............

[frankie]

The only reason that is a problem with the NYT, is the simple fact that they report their opinions as news.  I don't care about their opinions, everyone has them.  I want the news to form my own opinion.  They slant, slant, and then, slant some more. I'll find out they left out elementary data of a story, only by reading about the same news item in the Washington Post.

 

Offering opinions as news is wrong, no matter what the media, yes. No good! I've never read NYT myself so I can't really say anything on the matter

[poppyshake]

I work from home and it's not demanding or particularly strenuous so I do most of the housework and cooking etc. Alan works really unsociable shifts so the last thing I'd expect is for him to come home and start doing housework. He does actually do most of the vacuuming though and washes the kitchen/bathroom floor. He cleans up after Molly too though we take it in turns to feed her. If he is here in the morning then he will always make the first cuppa and bring me breakfast in bed, but that's not often ... only Sunday usually (but on days/weeks off etc .. every day )  

He has very minimal understanding of the washing machine  and it is shocking to see him hang anything on an airer ... he hangs clothes up like they're coats and just sort of drapes them over all bunched up .. consequently they never dry. Nine times out of ten I cook and wash up (dishwasher is broken ) but at the weekends he is happy to do both. I used to work really awkward shifts and he would happily iron my stuff for work etc and when I'm unwell he does the best he can to do everything though obviously that's difficult and often there's a bit of an unholy mess to deal with later down the line. 

 

I take on the lion's share of the housework because I have far more time to do it .. he doesn't expect it and wouldn't probably notice if it didn't get done .. he doesn't mind mess. We are neither of us uber tidy but usually the house is only about an hour away from being presentable  I guess if he did expect it I might feel resentful .. I know I would in fact because my first husband  was very particular about the house being tidy (only it was me that had to do it). He would go nuts if the rug tassels weren't straight  Although I probably shouldn't, I blame him very much for being ill in the first place because I had a full time job and was having to work hard as soon as I got home to keep the home shiny like a new pin (or else there was trouble.) I had a bad bout of flu and then bang!! .. I was ill for months with what they thought was a virus but later (much later .. years later) said was ME.

 

I do think though that far too much emphasis is placed on eliminating germs and eliminating draughts etc .. here we all are in our hermetically sealed boxes scrubbing our hands every five mins (on cookery progs they drive me nuts with it .. you wouldn't have got Keith Floyd caring less about washing his hands or double dipping .. sharing saliva is good for you ) .. and then there's all that stuff about not eating peanuts from a communal bowl ... honestly I'm having some of those peanuts if they're put in front of me  Obviously it's different for people that suffer from any allergies or anxiety connected to dust or mess etc but other than that we should all eat a pound of dirt before we die .. so my Nan said (I've not been weighing mine so I'm not sure how far I've progressed ) .. you need to build up your resistance to germs and you can only do that by being exposed to them.

[bookmonkey]

I'm a sole parent  so for a long time it was all on me.  As soon as they were old enough I started teaching the kids to help, and now we pretty much share everything.  We take turns to do different jobs so the kids learn how to do everything.  

 

It actually surprises me how many of my kids friends (ages 15 and 17) don't know how to do the simplest jobs, i.e. washing dishes, vacuuming.  A lot of them would be horrified if anyone suggested they do anything.  I wanted my kids to know how to look after a house when they left home, so I made sure I taught them.   They take their turns cooking too.

 

When I was married I worked full time.  My then hubby and I had agreed he'd do the majority of the housework as he only worked about 12 hours a week.  Unfortunately he just never seemed to know what needed to be done. I would always have to do it all when I got home.  

 

And I really don't agree with this antibacterial obsession that's around.  A certain amount of germs is necessary to build your immunity.  I do disinfect if there's a stomach bug around, but that's because things like that are really bad for both kids.  They both have health issues that make any vomiting thing a huge problem, and possibly fatal.  But everyday I definitely don't disinfect.  

[poppy]

I'm a sole parent  so for a long time it was all on me.  As soon as they were old enough I started teaching the kids to help, and now we pretty much share everything.  We take turns to do different jobs so the kids learn how to do everything.  

 

It actually surprises me how many of my kids friends (ages 15 and 17) don't know how to do the simplest jobs, i.e. washing dishes, vacuuming.  A lot of them would be horrified if anyone suggested they do anything.  I wanted my kids to know how to look after a house when they left home, so I made sure I taught them.   They take their turns cooking too.

 

 

Sounds like you're doing a great job of bringing up your kids, bookmonkey.

[Athena]

I wouldn't tolerate a guy who expected me to basically be his Mom when it comes to housework. That just doesn't fly with me.

x

I agree!

x 

I too know a few guys that clean up better than some women [...] we'd have to help the puppies out.

x

It's really interesting to hear what it was like for you .

x 

The only reason that is a problem with the NYT, is the simple fact that they report their opinions as news.  I don't care about their opinions, everyone has them.  I want the news to form my own opinion.  They slant, slant, and then, slant some more. I'll find out they left out elementary data of a story, only by reading about the same news item in the Washington Post. 

That is just wrong, imo.

x

That does sound wrong.

x 

I grew up mostly with my Mother, as Father died when I was 8.  We did everything, as there was no one else to do it.  So it's difficult for me to see things as "women's work" or "man's work".  It's work that according to your strength and inclination that you are able to accomplish.

x

I'm sorry for your loss, that must have been difficult.

x 

I work from home and [...] and you can only do that by being exposed to them.

x

(sorry for making your quote smaller, there were too many emoticons )

It's great to hear how things work for you, Kay. 

x 

I'm a sole parent  so for a long time it was all on me.  As soon as they were old enough I started teaching the kids to help, and now we pretty much share everything.  We take turns to do different jobs so the kids learn how to do everything.  

 

It actually surprises me how many of my kids friends (ages 15 and 17) don't know how to do the simplest jobs, i.e. washing dishes, vacuuming.  A lot of them would be horrified if anyone suggested they do anything.  I wanted my kids to know how to look after a house when they left home, so I made sure I taught them.   They take their turns cooking too.

 

When I was married I worked full time.  My then hubby and I had agreed he'd do the majority of the housework as he only worked about 12 hours a week.  Unfortunately he just never seemed to know what needed to be done. I would always have to do it all when I got home.  

 

And I really don't agree with this antibacterial obsession that's around.  A certain amount of germs is necessary to build your immunity.  I do disinfect if there's a stomach bug around, but that's because things like that are really bad for both kids.  They both have health issues that make any vomiting thing a huge problem, and possibly fatal.  But everyday I definitely don't disinfect.

x

Very interesting to hear what it's like for you.

 

@ anti bacterial

I agree that we shouldn't go overboard, but I don't agree with sharing saliva. If one person's ill, you're spreading that illness. I'd only share it with people close to me and whom I know not to be ill. Otherwise I find the thought a bit disgusting tbh .

[pontalba]

 

Athena wrote: x

I'm sorry for your loss, that must have been difficult.

x 

 

Thank you.

x

 

Athena wrote:  @ anti bacterial

I agree that we shouldn't go overboard, but I don't agree with sharing saliva. If one person's ill, you're spreading that illness. I'd only share it with people close to me and whom I know not to be ill. Otherwise I find the thought a bit disgusting tbh .

 

My Paternal Grandmother was very germ conscious.  She actually went way overboard in her use of disinfectants.  Way overboard.  I could list the number of No-No's that she enlisted, but there isn't room on this board.  heh  A little of that rubbed off on my Father, but not that much.  I was, however, brought up not to drink or eat after anyone.  I still go by that, only eating after my husband.  So, I can certainly agree with you about sharing saliva.   

 

•  

[vodkafan]

Haven't read all the comments but I did read all the article.... the common male approach to untidiness or dirt is not to see it...I know one guy who rationalised this as "throwing an SEP field around it". SEP meaning "someone elses' problem" 

[pontalba]

Hah, that sounds about right, James.

 

Your friend's rationalization actually makes sense to me.    I don't know if you've ever read any of China Mieville's writing, but his The City and The City has, as part of it's plot, two cities actually coexisting together.  But separate.  One group/city is "unseen".  That is, they are trained from babyhood not to see the other city.  Yeah, it's strange, but a great detective story on top of it.  Anyhow, the "unseen" has become part of my husband's and my vernacular.  No, don't look at that (candy, sweets, expensive stuff), it's Unseen.

Here's a link to the book.  Just for fun.   It's part science fiction, and part detective story.  We both enjoyed it. http://www.amazon.com/City-Random-House-Readers-Circle/dp/034549752X/ref=tmm_pap_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1387914352&sr=8-4

Edited December 24, 2013 by pontalba

[Little Pixie]

I kept meaning to post this, so it`s a bit of a Resurrection Bump at this stage...

 

Telegraph - article which references the NY Times article from a UK viewpoint.   There are other fun Bryony Gordon articles on the same site.

[pontalba]

I kept meaning to post this, so it`s a bit of a Resurrection Bump at this stage...

 

Telegraph - article which references the NY Times article from a UK viewpoint.   There are other fun Bryony Gordon articles on the same site.

 

   Hah!  Love it. 

 

Seriously, I think that most men are not taught, from an early age to pick up after themselves. 

 

We do householdy things together, but some things, clearly, are still my bailiwick.  And that's ok with me.  I'm set in my ways, and like certain things done in a certain way.  There are some things that are husband's sphere, so it works out pretty evenly. 

It's easier for us, I know, because we are both retired, and it makes a world of difference. 

[Athena]

That's an interesting article! Thanks for posting it, Sarah .

[Little Pixie]

 

I liked it too - it was far better than the sort of article where a journalist is stuck for an idea and rehashes someone else`s work.

[Virginia]

I do the majority of house work but I don't mind. Hubby has a very physical job (heavy equipment mechanic) and he's over 50. Not that he CAN'T do it but as I'm at home and a full time student its the least I can do. He's so very undemanding . I'm the granddaughter of a farm wife and the daughter of a baby boomer. Interesting mix. I've had "nontraditional" jobs (law enforcement, Army, etc) but have found that I love puttering around my home. Cooking, cleaning, organizing. I love it. BUT I don't let it rule me or my family's comfort. Our house is VERY lived in! Books and magazines all over the place, grandkid's toys laid about, dog beds, etc. As long as the kitchen and bathrooms are cleaned and the laundry is done I'm easy going about other stuff. I dust because our house is a dust magnet and the grands have allergies. When you look outside all you see is yellow/green pollen.

 

I also do most of the cooking during the weekdays but hubby also loves to cook and will do breakfast and weekend meals. Long ago I told him that I would maintain everything WITHIN the house and he had to maintain everything OUTSIDE the house. For years he would get upset with me because I would return the truck home with the gas light on. Finally I explained to him that as the truck was OUTSIDE the home, he was responsible for filling the tank.  

 

I don't expect my husband to work 12 plus hours a day only to come home and do what I could do in less than two hours. I've hated women who call themselves "homemakers" and "housewives" yet they do nothing all day. Its like they emulate Peggy Bundy (Married...With Children).

 

To me, a home is a place where people LIVE. I don't do show homes. Places where you are meant to ohh and ahhh but not a place to feel welcome. I also avoid houses where the homeowners have a Hycinth Bucket mentality   honestly, who dusts their white, streamline phone with last caller redial?!

 

I know I've gotten off topic but there is SO many subtopics to dig ones teeth into!

[pontalba]

LOL, all great points. 

I think that if both parties are comfortable, that's great. 

 

Hah, the pine pollen is flying here too.  Oick!

[Virginia]

You are so right, both partners should have the understanding of their expectations known early in the relationship and either be willing to settle, compromise or move on. And most importantly of all, each partner's contributions must be respected. My husband knows to NEVER make the mistake of thinking that his job is more important so he can say or act any kind of way. I don't mind being his "personal assistant" but I better hear a "thank you" and a "please" when a request is made. I am a wife, not a maid. If I am going to be treated as such, I'm getting paid for it! LOL!!

 

For most people, they can only see their value through the eyes of others.