Freewheeling Andy Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 So I noticed on Maureen's reading-list that she says she has "a problem with "fantasy" books." I do too. And I was wondering why. I think I've got there, and the answer is really simple. Clearly it's not merely that they are rubbish - because a lot of them patently aren't rubbish, and lots of people of entirely reliable judgement love them. I thought on a bit more, and I realise that, deep down, I probably have the same problems with the magical-realism bits of magical-realism. I remember getting annoyed by that stuff in Midnight's Children, or in Hundred Years Of Solitude. Thinking that it was almost ruining the book for me. I even have problems with the ghost-elements of David Mitchell's Ghostwritten; or with the second-world stuff of Murukami. I think in the case of the latter books, where the people live in the "normal" world, and there are just fragments on magic interfering with literal realism, I can put up with it, particularly when it is fundamental to the meaning of the story. But once you stretch back to "proper" fantasy, and so on, it's a big struggle. I just don't think I can face suspending belief. I want to read about things I can genuinely accept could happen. Anything with magic, or religion, or ghosts, or "mythical-style creatures", is hard for me to accept. The problem even stretches to elements of something like Star Wars. Once there is a "force" and battles between "good" and "evil", I want to shout "What a pile of old rubbish, didn't you learn anything in your science lessons?" Now, clearly the fault lies with me, but I was just thinking that it's interesting that I come up against a complete and utter brick wall with this genre because (I think) I'm such a cold rationalist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angerball Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I'm the same way too - I have problems with fantasy. There are a few fantasy books that I have read and enjoyed (The Talisman, for example), but there are more that I have given up on, because I can't quite suspend my disbelief either. That's why I disliked books like The Chronicles of Narnia series, or Lord of The Rings or the Harry Potter series. I just found myself rolling my eyes with scorn. That's not to say that a book has to be 100% believable for me to enjoy it, but something about fantasy rubs me the wrong way. There are some fantasy books that I'd love to read, because they have gotten such good reviews, but I keep putting it off because I just feel like I won't enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polka Dot Rock Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I can understand why people can have problems with fantasy writing. I think that's more common than my problem which is - I don't like thrillers or crime! And I don't know why! It's not a 'snobbery' thing at all, it's just that I'll read them but I don't enjoy them (unless it's Kate Atkinson, for some reason, who I enjoy HUGELY). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Anything with magic, or religion, or ghosts, or "mythical-style creatures", is hard for me to accept . or vampires, or Pratchett.... Once there is a "force" and battles between "good" and "evil", I want to shout "What a pile of old rubbish, didn't you learn anything in your science lessons?" Yet when I am reading a good old thriller,after an idealised ending(after the necessary amount of hassles and problems of course) I never feel disgusted disbelief. In fact I feel enjoyment. Now, clearly the fault lies with me, but I was just thinking that it's interesting that I come up against a complete and utter brick wall with this genre because (I think) I'm such a cold rationalist i don't know if I am a rationalist, however I even have problems with the film versions. I did not get LOTR, or Matrix, and did not even try Harry Potter. Star Wars and other SCi Fis leave me stone cold. I'd rather watch Tom and Jerry. (I know, I know!) There are a few fantasy books that I have read and enjoyed .... Then again I enjoyed Time Traveller's wife immensly, and this is in my humble opinion a mixture of genres, but has a high seasoning of fantasy. HP, LOTR and the rest are widely enjoyed across the world, by both sexes, all ages and cultures, but I am completely baffled as to why. Perhaps I do not have the required amount of imagination. I must admit that I had to struggle to read the first half of JAsper Fforde's Something Rotten. At first I kept likening the book to Alice in Wonderland - a book which I remember thinking as too weird by half when I first read it. However once I managed to get through the first half, I found myself enjoying the rest of the book - much to my surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I most often have a problem with mythical creatures and twinkly-star type magic. I also have a problem with strange worlds that have odd names and whose inhabitants have equally unpronounceable monikers. That said, I did enjoy Maia by Richard Adams (alternative fantasy world with no odd creatures) and Song of Sourcery by Elizabeth Scarborough (Dragons and unicorns, but earthy magic and "normal" people). I really do enjoy Pratchett though - although the Discworld is another world and there are mythical creatures all over the place, everything involved is recognisable as having something comparative in the "round world" - he's a master of satire. On the whole, though, I'm not really one for "hard core" fantasy at all - only that which is firmly rooted in "normalcy" in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maureen Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 COme to think of it, I also enjoy Greek myth - and have done so since my teenage years. So why can I enjoy that, yet have a problem with other fantasy? Are there different types of fantasy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyanddandy Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I can understand why people can have problems with fantasy writing. I think that's more common than my problem which is - I don't like thrillers or crime! And I don't know why! It's not a 'snobbery' thing at all, it's just that I'll read them but I don't enjoy them (unless it's Kate Atkinson, for some reason, who I enjoy HUGELY). I too seem to have a problem with fantasy books - I just don't choose them - I haven't read LOTR or Harry Potter. Similarly I don't choose thrillers or crime except Kate Atkinson!! And I used to read PD James eons ago - things have to be 'believable' for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonchild Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Your post sums me up entirely, Andy. I just can't get on with fantasy either. For a book to be enjoyable for me it has got to be entirely believable. I'm sure I'm missing out on loads of great fiction but its just a genre I can't make myself get into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyB Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I too have 'a problem with fantasy' I've never liked it. My OH and daughter love it so I do have a respect for it. I'm not sure why I like my fiction so rooted in reality - just the way I am I suppose. I was encouraged to read The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe as a child - loved the children playing hide and seek in a rambling house, stopped enjoying it from the moment they went through the wardrobe! (sorry I know that so many people love that book but for me it defines my need for realism). I'm squeamish about crime novels (though am too enjoying Kate Atkinson) - for some reason I could never read a grisly crime novel (although I would watch the equivilant in film) - I think it's because reading is too close to the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitty_kitty Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I used to hate fantasy but i have really got into it - in fact i enjoy anything that stretches my imagination, i like historical and horror books for the same reason. Some realistic books are too dull and do not grab me, the same for chic lit really except Marian Keyes Although i really enjoy epic stories or saga type books Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofkublakhan Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Well, I'm glad I don't have to defend my love of fantasy -- I see on the top ten all time box office for movies that nine out of the top ten have fantasy elements -- Star Wars, Shrek 2, ET, Star Wars 1, Pirates, Spider-man, Star Wars 3, LOTR and Spider-man 2. The number one all time is Titanic. Lot's of great movies have fantasy elements that we don't think of as unicorns and dragons, the movie with Tom Hanks, Big is a fine example. Which part of fantasy annoys you? Could it be time-travel in the Time Travelers Wife? Or the practically perfect Mary Poppins? Maybe it's just that damn feather in Forrest Gump. For me, the appeal is the same in fantasy that I might find in a Sherlock Holmes book - an exceptional individual in interesting circumstances. Certainly not my world - it is an escape from my dreary grounded existence. Maybe I am too old now to think, "what if I were special", what would it be like to have a destiny, a dream, a wish .... a hope. I like the idea of "true love" in the Princess Bride. I like the futuristic ideas and the allegory in The Matrix. I like the fun ideas of secret societies in the Da Vinci Code. I like the idea of the "superman" in Ludlum's The Bourne Identity. I like Oscar Wilde's Picture of Dorian Gray, haunting stuff. Brave New World, 1984, Midsummer's Nights Dream, Siddhartha, Gulliver's Travels, Oedipus Rex -- the list goes on and on -- fantasy, each and every one. The needle of fantasy threads it's way through plenty of great literature, coloring the pattern woven by a skillful craftsman; it brings comfort in a cold and cheerless world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polka Dot Rock Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I'm a big fan of fantasy-set-in-the-'real'-world: my favourite TV show is Buffy the Vampire Slayer and I loved Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke, as well as Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials. Plus a lot of the films I love have fantasy elements to them such as Edward Scissorhands and Studio Ghibli's films. I like the idea of living in this world but with the unexpected occurring and disrupting it. I've always been fascinated with alternative realities, so I think that has a lot to do with it! However, I've never liked Lord of the Rings (sorry!) despite trying to read them and watch the films. It just didn't connect with me. I'm not sure why... I was never particularly curious about Harry Potter either, but I started watching the films and really enjoyed them. I may get around to reading them one day On the whole, I'd say that I enjoy fantasy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I like the idea of "true love" in the Princess Bride. I like the futuristic ideas and the allegory in The Matrix. I like the fun ideas of secret societies in the Da Vinci Code. I like the idea of the "superman" in Ludlum's The Bourne Identity. I like Oscar Wilde's Picture of Dorian Gray, haunting stuff. Brave New World, 1984, Midsummer's Nights Dream, Siddhartha, Gulliver's Travels, Oedipus Rex -- the list goes on and on -- fantasy, each and every one. The needle of fantasy threads it's way through plenty of great literature, coloring the pattern woven by a skillful craftsman; it brings comfort in a cold and cheerless world. I do agree with a lot of what you've said, Wrath (you have a way of expressing your thoughts very clearly and precisely). However, many of the titles you listed here, although they do have a strong fantasy element to them, I think aren't necessarily thought of as fantasy per se. The Princess Bride, I think, is the closest to "traditional" fantasy, but it's more akin to traditional fairytales; The Matrix leans towards sci-fi/action; The Da Vinci Code towards conspiracy/mystery; The Bounre Identity, again, sci-fi/action; The Picture of Dorian Gray has a strong gothic horror theme; Brave New World and 1984, more sci-fi again. I've never read Siddhartha or Oedipus Rex, but do agree that both Gulliver's Travels and A Midsummer Night's Dream are firmly in the fantasy camp. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's difficult to compartmentalise things into a single genre - all the very best writing encompasses a whole range of themes, emotions and fields, so that the lines are blurred. I don't think I could ever say outright that I strictly do not like any fantasy - that would be discounting many books I have loved that have a fantasy element to them (after all, all fiction is, to some extent, the fantasy of the author put down on paper...), there are just some elements that do not appeal to me so much as others, and a grounding in some kind of reality makes things much more enjoyable for me personally, no matter what the subject matter (even if it does involve unicorns.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freewheeling Andy Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 For me, the stuff Wrath points out is stuff I have real difficulty getting past: I would argue that something with a strong allegory/satire element like The Master and Margerita needs the magical stuff to happen in the natural world. And that's what happens with magical realism too. But I don't like it - my instincts are to push back against it and say "No! This can't be happening, it's not natural or real." Eventually, for those "serious" books set in the real world, whether Time Traveller's Wife or Ghostwritten, it's a barrier I can overcome. But I don't like it. When the core of the book, the whole centre of the book, is set around a clearly magical/artificial world where reason is abandoned, then I find it hard to even begin to read the book. I would argue that 1984 and Brave New World fall much more firmly into the category of future fiction - where what happens would have been possible in a future predicted by the author, without recourse to the supernatural. And I'm absolutely fine with them. As I say, I don't like the supernatural appearing in any books, but if it does appear I want it to exist in a state where it's fully unexpected and where everything else is "normal", and when it happens the characters are utterly shocked by it - like in TTW or Murukami's novels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofkublakhan Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 I agree with Kell, in that the genre isn't nor can be easily defined - which is why I used such a wide net of examples. I don't think we can simply say "a problem with fantasy" at all. From this viewpoint, I think Andy is really saying "super-natural", a sub-set perhaps of fantasy. Books like Frankenstein, Tarzan, Dracula and The Ghost and Mrs. Muir are rejected by Andy. This makes much more sense to me - I get queasy trying to crack a unicorn book. In the theater we use a term called "willful suspension of disbelief." It requires the audience to take the first step, otherwise the experience can not happen: no matter how brilliant the production. The same can be said for any foray into the fantasy ilk, the onus is upon the reader to eagerly turn that first page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nici Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 in fact i enjoy anything that stretches my imagination, i like historical and horror books for the same reason. Some realistic books are too dull and do not grab me, I am exactly the same! My favourite books are the unrealistic books, as most realistic modern books do not hold my attention. I also love horror and historical books! I have never read a dragon/unicorn sort of fantasy book, but I got my first one a couple a days ago so I will see how i go with that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freewheeling Andy Posted June 1, 2007 Author Share Posted June 1, 2007 I think that's probably fair, Wrath. When I encountered Ghormenghast, I had difficulty with the plot but much less difficulty with the concept because although clearly a "fantasy" book, there was nothing super-natural that was happening. I'm also thinking that I should have possibly headed this "My problem..." rather than "A problem...", because the fault I think clearly lies with me. I am rejecting a large volume of books because of a problem I have with suspending disbelief. And yet I manage to cope (although get annoyed even though I know it's the cokey to the novel) with Bulgakov or Murukami in a way that I struggle with when the book has an airbrushed castle on the cover and a hero on a great quest. I think I can define it in how I think about science fiction - I can watch 2001 and there's clearly a near-mystical element in what the black slab is doing. Yet I can accept it because it's just "technology so far beyond our understanding"; whereas in Star Wars, the great force which flows round us all and through us all and is harnessed by the Jedi just seems, well, like a load of pointless specious tripe. It's where it goes from being unexplained technology, and into the partially-explained forces of nature which my rational attitude says "Hey, I know that's not happening." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudyB Posted June 1, 2007 Share Posted June 1, 2007 Lot's of great movies have fantasy elements that we don't think of as unicorns and dragons, the movie with Tom Hanks, Big is a fine example. True and it's made me realise that I don't mind fantasy elements - quite like a bit of haunting and a sprinkling of magic but I think for me it has to be within a realist context - not very good with complete other worlds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icecream Posted June 2, 2007 Share Posted June 2, 2007 I live for fantasy. I absolutely love escaping into new worlds. Harry Potter, The Magic Faraway Tree, LOTR. I have a new found liking for Terry Pratchet too. I also love the Charmed series, however, I was never interested in Buffy. I love Star Wars, and want to read the books. The world of the Jedi Knights and the battling forces is amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laramie Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Fantasy is one of my favourite genres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiona Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I'm not a fan of fantasy although I love Harry Potter. I like that though cos it's believable - to me anyway. I don't mind magicalness or stuff that isn't real - but I like it to be believable. I also enjoyed Lord of the Rings. I'm not much into other kinds of high fantasy for adult readers though. I love YA fantasy though, I can't explain way. I don't really like most fantasy book you find in that section of the book shop though. They do sometimes stretch the realms of believability. Books like Daughter of the Forest though, by Juliet Maruiller (sp?) I like because it's mingled with the real world and based on old celtic fantasy. I guess that's why I like Harry Potter - it feels real. Not keen on sci-fi though, especially Star Wars! Yuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofkublakhan Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I've read buckets of fantasy and while I'm not much of a dragons and unicorns kinda guy, on occasion I've enjoyed them (The Pern books and the Nine Princes of Amber come to mind). I like the fantasy era when people still used staves, bows and arrows, swords and rode mountain ponies that seemed to have a mind of their own. Where you could visit a chandlery to buy water proof saddle bags, candles and some wax covered cheese. Where a woman might disguise herself as a man when traveling, where one spins yarns around the campfire and the guy sitting next to you might be 400 years old. Where legends still walk the land, finding a hint at destiny and a Greater Power ... a plan, dammit. Let me escape from my Honda Civic with my "all news all the time" radio stations. Let me forget, for just a moment, that rent is due. Deliver me from dirty dishes, grading papers, watching theater and HBO -- oh, to just get away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laramie Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 I like the fantasy era when people still used staves, bows and arrows, swords and rode mountain ponies that seemed to have a mind of their own. Where you could visit a chandlery to buy water proof saddle bags, candles and some wax covered cheese. Where a woman might disguise herself as a man when traveling, where one spins yarns around the campfire and the guy sitting next to you might be 400 years old. Where legends still walk the land, finding a hint at destiny and a Greater Power. You'd probably like the Gift , The Riddle and The Crow trilogy by Alison Croggon then! You've basically just described them! There's a further two to come out in that series as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofkublakhan Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 You'd probably like the Gift , The Riddle and The Crow trilogy by Alison Croggon then! You've basically just described them! There's a further two to come out in that series as well. Well Mad Gal, thanx for the tip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laramie Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 You are completely welcome - I never miss a chance to mention/recommend those books!! They're fab! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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