frankie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Vodkafan and I are doing a mini group reading of Self-Made Man and we thought we'd start a thread on the book and see if others would like to join in. And even if not, here's where we are going to discuss the book. Here's what amazon has to say about the book: Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back Again Following in the tradition of John Howard Griffin (Black Like Me) and Barbara Ehrenreich (Nickel and Dimed), Norah Vincent absorbed a cultural experience and reported back on what she observed incognito. For more than a year and a half she ventured into the world as Ned, with an ever-present five o’clock shadow, a crew cut, wire-rim glasses, and her own size 111/2 shoes—a perfect disguise that enabled her to observe the world of men as an insider. The result is a sympathetic, shrewd, and thrilling tour de force of immersion journalism that’s destined to challenge preconceptions and attract enormous attention. With her buddies on the bowling league she enjoyed the rough and rewarding embrace of male camaraderie undetectable to an outsider. A stint in a high-octane sales job taught her the gut- wrenching pressures endured by men who would do anything to succeed. She frequented sex clubs, dated women hungry for love but bitter about men, and infiltrated all-male communities as hermetically sealed as a men’s therapy group, and even a monastery. Narrated in her utterly captivating prose style and with exquisite insight, humor, empathy, nuance, and at great personal cost, Norah uses her intimate firsthand experience to explore the many remarkable mysteries of gender identity as well as who men are apart from and in relation to women. Far from becoming bitter or outraged, Vincent ended her journey astounded—and exhausted—by the rigid codes and rituals of masculinity. Having gone where no woman (who wasn’t an aspiring or actual transsexual) has gone for any significant length of time, let alone eighteen months, Norah Vincent’s surprising account is an enthralling reading experience and a revelatory piece of anecdotally based gender analysis that is sure to spark fierce and fascinating conversation. Edited February 29, 2012 by frankie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 (edited) I have added this book to my wishlist - it sounds great I really enjoyed Black Like Me (well, not sure enjoyed is the right word, as it covered the horrors of segregation). I'm off to the library tonight, so am going to see if they have a copy of Self-Made Man. Edited March 1, 2012 by Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 I have added this book to my wishlist - it sounds great I really enjoyed Black Like Me (well, not sure enjoyed is the right word, as it covered the horrors of segregation). I'm off to the library tonight, so am going to see if they have a copy of Self-Made Man. Great to have you with us, the more the merrier! Did you have any luck at the library? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Thanks Frankie No, they don't have it at the library But it is available on Kindle, so I've got it anyway! Edited March 2, 2012 by Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 That's great you are joining us Ruth! We are reading it one chapter at a time, and waiting till the others catch up, so we could discuss things as we went along. I have read the first chapter, I think Frankie may have read it by now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'm going to see if they do this book in large print ,as it sounds interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 I'm going to see if they do this book in large print ,as it sounds interesting Hi Charmer yes I think it will be a good one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 No, they don't have it at the library But it is available on Kindle, so I've got it anyway! Ooh, that's excellent! That's great you are joining us Ruth! We are reading it one chapter at a time, and waiting till the others catch up, so we could discuss things as we went along. I have read the first chapter, I think Frankie may have read it by now? I'm sorry but you think wrong Frankie was so busy with the wedding preparation and then the wedding, and it's not until now that I'm sort of recovered. I promise I'll try and finish the first chapter by the end of the day! I'm going to see if they do this book in large print ,as it sounds interesting Welcome onboard charmer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Now we are Four!! I'll get the T-shirts printed..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 (edited) Chapter 1. Getting Started (there will be spoilers of chapter 1 in this post, do not read if you haven't finished it yourself!) Okay, getting started on Getting Started! lol The first chapter was quite short and was mostly about how Vincent came up with trying to disguise as a man for a longer period of time, and what steps she had to take to physically (and mentally) start embodying a male persona. I have to admit, before I started reading the book I figured that Vincent is probably gay or bisexual at least, why else would she embark on such a unique and difficult task. I was so sure of it! That just goes to show how some people, or at least me if anyone else won't admit to it, feel the need to categorize things and have labels, to make sense of people and things. Vincent assures the reader that she is not a transvestite or a transsexual, and that she wasn't suffering from any sexual identity crisis. Of course this doesn't say anything about her being gay or straight. And why would this really even matter, it definitely shouldn't. And yet I can't help thinking about it. The subject that came up in the chapter and that vodkafan already brought up in his PM to me, was the men gazing women up and down as they walked past them. Vincent labeled this as showing and having disrespect for women, that they are an object of desire, no matter if they aren't even that pretty. And if not desire, then 'you were just another pussy to be put in its place'. I'm not absolutely sure what kind of streets she was walking, but surely looking someone up and down isn't always meant as showing disrespect. There are many ways to look at another person. One can be very blatant about it, actually wanting the object of the oggling to notice and feel they are being sized up. However, one can be really discreet about it too, not wishing to upset the other person. We are only humans, after all. It's not just men who look at women, women do the same with men and they can be just as blatant or discreet about it. I admired the lengths Vincent would go to to disguise herself as a man. I confess, I've been curious about having the male genitalia, I wouldn't object to being able to have a penis for one day in my life to see what it's like. Edit: Oh crap. I just found out that Norah Vincent has written another book of interest: Voluntary Madness: My Year Lost and Found in the Loony Bin. If S-MM is any good, I'm probably going to read that one too... and another book has been added to wishlist... Oh man Edited March 6, 2012 by frankie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Hi Frankie, this chapter was sort of an introduction wasn't it, yes she is gay because in the second chapter she talks about her "trailer trash girlfriend". But like you I don't think it matters in the slightest,and didn't have any bearing on why she did it. She said that she got no thrill out of the dress up, and the penis novelty wore off after a couple of days at most. You admirably answered the question I asked you in my PM, but I am going to copy and paste it here for Ruth and Charmer to answer if they want. Please anybody jump in.! I have read the first chapter of SMM. The biggest thing in that chapter to me was the revelation of how Norah felt not to have men look at her, and how until then she had not been completely aware that men did constantly look at women and that it was a disrespect thing. This may be an uncomfortable book. I have to admit that this is true. As a man I have looked at women , every day all my life I guess. I would say that is not always a conscious sexual thing but unconciously, maybe, it is. But don't women look at men too the same way? And don't gay women by inference do exactly the same? I would be interested to know if a butch dyke looked you up and down wouldn't that be the same sexual disrespect? or is casual sexual interest not really disrespect at all, just the way the world goes around? Over to you for your opinion. I have now read the second chapter, about male friendship. I will have a lot more to say about this one!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I've had a bit of a mad few days, and have fallen behind with my reading Will try and catch up with this later...I like the idea of reading chapter by chapter. Will it be okay if I post a bit later with my thoughts? (Sorry, I'm always late to the party!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ruth, have no worries, you can join in when you have the time and inclination, it's all voluntary Vodkafan, ahaa, so she IS gay. I still say it doesn't matter and shouldn't matter, but it does make more sense in my head. Bodkafan, I bet you have more to say about chapter 2., I can't wait to hear it When are you going to dish out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I will wait till everybody has caught up and commented on chapter 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) I've just finished reading chapter 1. I think this is going to be a very interesting, and sometimes uncomfortable book to read. I'm glad that she mentioned the necessary deception that she had to pull off in order for the experiment to work. I was wondering how she felt about 'conning' people. I have not read past chapter 1 yet, so I guess I'll wait and see, but I suspect that at some point, some of the people who befriended Ned may have felt betrayed to some extent when they found out the truth (IF they ever found out the truth). I too admire the lengths she went to in order to become Ned. I wouldn't mind doing it for a short while out of sheer curiosity, but honestly I don't think I could be bothered with the fake beard, and I definitely wouldn't want to cut my hair into a style I didn't like, or wear the underwear that must have been uncomfortable. The part about how men look at women, yet shy away from making direct eye contact with other men, intrigued me. Like Frankie, I can't accept hat making direct eye contact is always leering or intended to display dominance. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I'm naive, but that isn't my experience. I also think that women look at men equally as much as men look at women, but obviously that experiment doesn't really allow for that to be tested. (Do women avoid looking directly at other women in the same way that Norah said men avoid looking directly at other men? I don't personally think so.) I'm looking forward to reading the rest of this book. Aiming to read one chapter a day if possible. (EDIT: As I'm reading other books too, I'm aiming for one chapter every two days.) Frankie, I also noticed Norah Vincent's other book! If I like this one, I'm definitely going to get the other one Edited March 8, 2012 by Ruth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I've read chapter two now. Very interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankie Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 I also think that women look at men equally as much as men look at women, but obviously that experiment doesn't really allow for that to be tested. (Do women avoid looking directly at other women in the same way that Norah said men avoid looking directly at other men? I don't personally think so.) I'm glad you asked that question in the parenthesis. When vodkafan initially posted his thoughts on the subject in a PM to me, it didn't occur to me, but now that you said it, Ruth, I've started thinking about it more. And yesterday I realised that if I'm at a bar, and see some women who are perhaps a bit too 'tipsy', oh heck let's just say drunk and get it over with, and if they are sort of restless, I do sometimes consciously avoid looking at them and especially catching their eye. It's sometimes happened that I've unconsciously stared at someone with no ulterior motives or thoughts about that person and they've shouted 'what are you looking at?!'. But that's with very drunken girls, and not even all of them, just perhaps with those who get aggressive when drunk or perhaps have a bad day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 That's a good point. I would definitely agree that in that situation, say in a bar or somewhere, and there's a group of women who are drunk, I will avoid making eye contact. I'm not aware of consciously avoiding eye contact in general though - although maybe that's the point...I'm not aware of it, because it's so instinctive. It's got me thinking! (that's always a good thing when a book makes me think ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Hi all, I'm still waiting for my copy of this book to arrive ,but when it does I will read the first 2 chapters to catch up with you all . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 At last ive started the book and have read chapter one . I have nothing to add to the opinions given so far ,except I admired her devotion to becoming Ned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruth Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 ^^Yes, it took a lot of hard work. I don't think I could have been bothered with it all! I've read chapter 3 now - made me feel a bit uncomfortable in parts to be honest. Interesting though, but on the whole I definitely preferred chapter 2. I won't say more yet though for fear of giving away spoilers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I take back what I said . I do have something to say about chapter one . It makes no difference to me ,but she is definitely the male half of the lesbian relationship,as she proves in chapter two . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Oh that's great Charmer glad you got it at last. Yes she was pretty brave wasn't she. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vodkafan Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Ok we are all on board now so I will progress on with chapter 2. There is a lot of truth in this chapter, I believe Norah divined a lot of things correctly. I was pleased that she realised the significance and importance of the handshake. Some men are back slappers and shoulder punchers, but these are rare and most men do not like that. Women may have noticed that on the whole men do not touch each other very much. This makes the handshake even more important. The handshake is an intimate thing. It is the only accepted way for men to be intimate . You can divine almost everything about a man's character from that small contact: whether you can depend on him , if he is honest or a liar, or an idiot ; Strong or weak; whether he respects you , if he thinks he is better than you, acceptance or intolerance, whether he likes you and how much he is pleased to see you at that moment. And here is a thing ladies; I hate to say it but women almost without exception have horrible dead fish handshakes. They just don't get it. Even women whom I have loved and respected greatly in my life, I have been dismayed by the lack of character in their limp handshakes. I don't understand that. Because I know they have great character. I have heard that lesbians have good handshakes but I don't know any socially so I haven't been able to check that out. Another thing that came up with Ned is that men do not discuss their wives and that is absolutely very true. Norah describes it as "reverential". There are many aspects and reasons for this. It is just a sort of code of conduct. If they have problems with their wives they keep it inside and have another beer. They just hope the problem will go away. I have seen it time and time again that when a man finally does start criticising his wife then it is usually right at the very end of the relationship when all hope is lost and they are just about to break up. It is very bad form for a man to discuss his sex life if he is married or in a committed relationship. However, it is totally different if he is in a casual relationship or has a one night stand. That counts as sport and he will then tell everybody in detail of the whole circumstances. This is because it increases his standing among other males to be irresistable to women. But I have seen women make the transition from 'lady of the night' to angel- from talked about to "shut it-that's my girlfriend" - in minutes sometimes. It is a mysterious process in a man's mind that suddenly makes her worth it. The way the lads treated the boy Alex is also true. It is just training.It doesn't mean we don't love them or have quality time with them when alone. There is one major thing that Norah did not pick up on, and could not, because she could not get into that situation without being found out. That is the locker room stuff. Male nakedness. Together. I don't know what psychologists would call it but I call it "social homosexuality". From when we are small children we are herded together in our nakedness at school. During games lessons I remember being disquieted by this at first when I was small and asking my dad about it. I said I didn't want to get changed in front of the other boys because they would see my winkler and I was shy. I never forget what he said: " You must walk about as if you have the biggest winkler in the whole school." That is about the only piece of advice he ever gave me. But it is very true. That is where it starts. The male sexual confidence in himself. For, how can you eventually as a teenager stand in front of a girl naked-that terrifying rite of passage- if you have not first stood in front of your own sex and even seen their erections? OK I have given up secrets here. Discuss. Edited March 13, 2012 by vodkafan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charmer Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Enlightening vodkafan ,I feel I know mankind a little better now ,. .I think I'm finding this book hard going ,as its abit like a fairystory ,as shes not the typical woman to start with . I felt a warmth towards Alex ,as a mother would ,to take him under her wing ,which Norah didnt ,but her thinking was that of a woman in many ways . Are all the men in america as small as she made them sound .? Getting back to what Vodkafan said about the hand shake and the locker room nakedness ,its all about being (the bread winner ,the man )stepping up to showing who is the strongest provider and best for mating with. I'm not belittlling the man"s role in life ,as I wouldnt want to take on the job for all the tea in china . Thank you Vf for your rare glimpse into a man"s view on life, Fascinating stuff . Edited March 14, 2012 by charmer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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