Perfect Egalitarian Squalor - NYT

[pontalba]

Interesting ideas, and concepts regarding feminism, women's rights are brought out in this article.  Not to mention good old-fashioned common sense.

New York Times article, entitled, The Case for Filth by Stephen Marche.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/08/opinion/sunday/the-case-for-filth.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131208&_r=0

 

A few excerpts:

 

 

 

Despite its apparent banality, housework has always been an intellectually confounding problem. The idea that the chores are a series of repetitive tasks undertaken to preserve the health and hygiene of the living space is an easy assumption to make. Nothing could be further from the truth; housework is as complex as the connection between our emotional life and our material life, as subtle as all intimacy.

 

 

Here is the good news: Men’s behavior may not be changing, but women’s is. According to a 2000 study by University of Maryland sociologists, time-diary data from American adults show that the number of hours spent on domestic labor, not including child care or shopping, has declined steadily since 1965. This finding is mainly due to declines among women, both those with jobs and those without jobs. They have cut their housework hours almost in half since the 1960s.

 

 

I especially enjoyed the end of the article. 

[Athena]

That's an interesting article !

 

Because of my allergies (and my siblings's allergies, too), we're forced to clean up regularly. I think it's better too, I don't mind it so much if you can't see it (and if my allergies were unbothered) but if you can see it I don't like that. That said, I really don't like cleaning (the vacuum cleaner is noisy for one). I don't mind cleaning out the dishwasher. I tend to do quite a bit of chores around here, sometimes I mind, sometimes I don't. Doing the laundry is either not too bad or painful for me, some fabrics feel very uncomfortable to me so it depends what I'm doing (ie. jeans are uncomfortable, I do wear them though!). It's true that my mum does more in the housework than my dad. But when something mechanical is broken, he fixes it (if possible) (since he's the mechanical engineer). Also, my dad couldn't really do the laundry, he wouldn't know what's whose (I make it a point to remember exactly what's whose). My boyfriend does quite a bit in the housework too, while I don't like using the vacuum cleaner, usually he'll do that part sometimes, since he doesn't mind the noise (not that our vacuum cleaner is more noisy than anyone else's or anything). We often clean out the dishwasher together and he sometimes helps me with the laundry. I do more during the week generally than in the weekends, in the housework since when my mum's off work she does things too. When my parents are at work, I often end up tidying the kitchen as my dad tends to leave empty yoghurt packs around etc. When I don't have much energy, these things bother me more so I must clean it up. When I have more energy I can live with it more easily and forget it's there when I'm in another room. These days I take care of the food shopping too (a task that back in the day befell to my dad, since my mum really doesn't like going shopping), we often order online though, so I make the order and put it all away when it arrives.

 

I wouldn't call myself a slob but I'm not very neat either, though I do always put garbage in the bin instead of letting it lying around.

 

Do you do the housework in your house, pontalba?

[Signor Finzione]

"The only possible solution to the housework discrepancy is for everyone to do a lot less of it."

 

 

I'm not sure I like the idea of "living in perfect egalitarian squalor"; surely the real solution to the issue is 'compromise'?

 

I also disagree completely with the sweeping statement at the beginning that "most men" are characterised by their "domestic disregard". This isn't true at all in my experience, and in the experience of most people I know.

 

It's interesting how many different perspectives there are on so-called 'immanence', and whether housework should be considered a 'vice' for women. Personally I don't look forward to housework, but I don't mind doing it, because it's necessary and because you can take pride in the end result. As long as it's fairly balanced between whoever is in the house (and I do think that, if someone is at home all the time while their partner is at work, they do have a responsibility to do more around the house), then there's no good reason not to do it.

 

Interesting article, Pontalba, and one that's sure to cause different reactions in different people. I stayed well out of range of the NYT comments page on this one!

[Paul]

I cringe, before my wife responds.  My ever loving, ever caring wonderful wife. I can see her thinking.

[pontalba]

I cringe, before my wife responds.  My ever loving, ever caring wonderful wife. I can see her thinking.

 

He means the smoke coming out of my ears is only white(ish), not gray. 

[pontalba]

 

Athena wrote: Do you do the housework in your house, pontalba?          

 

Ahhh, good question, Athena.     Interestingly enough, we split it, perhaps not in a traditional manner though. We  both have wonky backs, mine being a bit touchier.  Mopping through the house (downstairs is all Mexican tile) usually means a trip to the chiropractor.  Husband does the heavy carrying, or we do it together.  Right at the moment he is in the kitchen getting our morning toast and tea (for me) and coffee (for him), as he does almost every morning.  I do the balance of cooking, such as it is.  Fortunately we both like "simple".

 

I do all the cat clean up, I had the cats before we married, so feel they are more my responsibility, although he does love them and serves as a Lap for all cats.

Most all surfaces are covered by books that are moved about, so not too much dust gathers there.  It looks a bit cluttered.....well, it is cluttered, but since it doesn't bother either of us, so what.  He is also learning to cover the butter when finished, and throw away empty containers when appropriate. 

 

Actually, both being retired, we do everything together.  Shop, read, errands.....all the things, I guess that many (most I suppose) women have to shoulder the responsibility for, as husband is away at work.  And I consider that a fair way of doing things.

 

I was always the "strong" one before.  It was my Aunt and I on our own, and she was ill the last 4 or 5 years of her life, so it all fell on me.  I had to do it, so I did it.  I'm learning to ask for help, and my husband, bless him, is upset when I don't ask. 

[pontalba]

 

Signor Finzione wrote:  I stayed well out of range of the NYT comments page on this one!

 

  Always the safe option!

 

I agree, compromise is always, well, usually the best option.  It all depends on circumstances.

 

However, what I mostly agree with re the article is the fact that we obsess over the entire cleanliness thing way too much.  Yes, you can be too clean, IMO.

 

For the last 20 years I've seen articles about children coming up with all kinds of allergies that were not predominate before.....to dust, pets, etc.  Now it's coming out that when children are not exposed to a certain amount of those things, it is more likely they will develop said allergies. 

 

No, I don't believe in garbage strewn about, but messy is fine.  Life is messy.

There should be a certain amount of "order", but not excessively so, IMO.

 

"Housework" is BORING, dull, repetitive, deadly dull.  Yes, there is a certain amount of satisfaction to see a sparkling clean area.  But the minute that area is used, it's fairly messy again.  That is frustrating, and makes the point quite moot. For me at any rate.  I have a very low threshold of boredom. 

[Little Pixie]

I do all the cat clean up, I had the cats before we married, so feel they are more my responsibility, although he does love them and serves as a Lap for all cats.

 

Aw, bless him. You have a Good One there.

 

Shall give that article a decent read later ; just skimmed it now, but it looks good.

 

I was put off clicking on the thread though, thinking it might be a Thirty Shades of Grey discussion, oslt.   Perhaps this is an English/American cultural language thing and `filth` in the US doesn`t have the sniggering naughty connotation it can here ? Erm, or it`s just my mind.

[pontalba]

Aw, bless him. You have a Good One there.

 

Shall give that article a decent read later ; just skimmed it now, but it looks good.

 

I was put off clicking on the thread though, thinking it might be a Thirty Shades of Grey discussion, oslt.   Perhaps this is an English/American cultural language thing and `filth` in the US doesn`t have the sniggering naughty connotation it can here ? Erm, or it`s just my mind.

 

   I wonder if I can adjust the heading.....will check.  I didn't realize the U.K. connotations.....

[Little Pixie]

   I wonder if I can adjust the heading.....will check.  I didn't realize the U.K. connotations.....

Noooo, give everyone else a giggle.

[pontalba]

Noooo, give everyone else a giggle.

LOL, already put a post in the ask a mod section.....the new title is interesting a well.....I think!

[Little Pixie]

LOL, already put a post in the ask a mod section.....the new title is interesting a well.....I think!

I wonder if the NYT is getting some disappointed people clicking their article.  

[pontalba]

I wonder if the NYT is getting some disappointed people clicking their article.

 

Knowing the NYT crowd as I do, I'm quite sure that is the fact!

[Marie H]

Noooo, give everyone else a giggle.

*snort* I did a double take, when the idea of a thread about filth, from pontalba   ! 

[pontalba]

*snort* I did a double take, when the idea of a thread about filth, from pontalba   ! 

 

  Yes.  Who, me??

 

 

Signor Finzione wrote: I'm not sure I like the idea of "living in perfect egalitarian squalor"; surely the real solution to the issue is 'compromise'?

 

Meant to say to this.....I feel that the NYT author was being somewhat 'tongue in cheek' at that juncture.

 

But some good points are made for it.......

[Signor Finzione]

However, what I mostly agree with re the article is the fact that we obsess over the entire cleanliness thing way too much.  Yes, you can be too clean, IMO.

 

. . .

 

"Housework" is BORING, dull, repetitive, deadly dull.  Yes, there is a certain amount of satisfaction to see a sparkling clean area.  But the minute that area is used, it's fairly messy again.  That is frustrating, and makes the point quite moot. For me at any rate.  I have a very low threshold of boredom. 

 

I do agree with this: I don't enjoy housework and use any excuse to avoid doing it. But I know a few people who spend their entire days at home and yet do not adhere to basic standards of cleanliness, either in their homes or with regard to their small children. It drives me batty, and I think that's why the writer's suggestion about doing less housework in general (no matter how ironic) got my back up a little. 

 

I don't usually take this sort of thing too seriously. I'm not a feminist, although I'm a woman, and I'm not the opposite of a feminist either. 

 

Meant to say to this.....I feel that the NYT author was being somewhat 'tongue in cheek' at that juncture.

 

No doubt. As I say, knowing people that live in varying levels of squalor themselves probably made me a bit more outraged at the suggestion than I should have been.  My husband and I both work (well, I'm not at the moment, but will be again shortly), and we compromise on the housework: why can't they? There's no excuse for sending your kids to school unwashed and smelly, when all you do yourself is sit at home and smoke cigarettes all day.   (sorry, strong subject. I'll just stop now.  )

 

Good title for the thread - I think it sums up the article perfectly. Although I didn't notice the 'filth' thing - my mind obviously isn't as dirty as Pixie's.    .

[pontalba]

I do agree with this: I don't enjoy housework and use any excuse to avoid doing it. But I know a few people who spend their entire days at home and yet do not adhere to basic standards of cleanliness, either in their homes or with regard to their small children. It drives me batty, and I think that's why the writer's suggestion about doing less housework in general (no matter how ironic) got my back up a little. 

 

I don't usually take this sort of thing too seriously. I'm not a feminist, although I'm a woman, and I'm not the opposite of a feminist either. 

 

 

No doubt. As I say, knowing people that live in varying levels of squalor themselves probably made me a bit more outraged at the suggestion than I should have been.  My husband and I both work (well, I'm not at the moment, but will be again shortly), and we compromise on the housework: why can't they? There's no excuse for sending your kids to school unwashed and smelly, when all you do yourself is sit at home and smoke cigarettes all day.   (sorry, strong subject. I'll just stop now.  )

 

Good title for the thread - I think it sums up the article perfectly. Although I didn't notice the 'filth' thing - my mind obviously isn't as dirty as Pixie's.    .

 

What you say is very true, and that's a whole 'nuther ball of wax as far as I can tell.  Lazy is lazy and needs no encouragement. 

[poppy]

I'm sure it's really commerce driven, but the adverts saying everything needs to be constantly disinfected or we risk coming down with the plague or something equally dire, is ridiculous. I read an article claiming that the TV remote should be disinfected daily to minimise germ spread! I really feel some of these people must suffer from bad cases of OCD. Apart from anything else, disinfectant kills all the good germs as well.

[pontalba]

That's just it, poppy.  Just like antibiotics kill all the bacteria in our guts...good and bad. 

 

Being exposed to a certain amount of "dirt" and germs early on builds up our immune system so we're able to fight off colds and flu, etc later. 

 

I've heard that TV remote thing, but not the one at home, the one in a hotel room.  I can understand that, sort of.  We don't know who was there last, or what they touched before the remote.....    But certainly we know what's what with our own.  Sheesh.

 

Besides, most viruses can't survive beyond a little while out in the air.  I know what they say about doorknobs and such, but if people would wash their hands, with only regular soap, not necessarily anti-anything soap, we'd all be better off.  A nurse friend of mine once told me that even simply rinsing your hands was very effective. 

[Athena]

Ahhh, good question, Athena.     Interestingly enough, we split it, perhaps not in a traditional manner though. We  both have wonky backs, mine being a bit touchier.  Mopping through the house (downstairs is all Mexican tile) usually means a trip to the chiropractor.  Husband does the heavy carrying, or we do it together.  Right at the moment he is in the kitchen getting our morning toast and tea (for me) and coffee (for him), as he does almost every morning.  I do the balance of cooking, such as it is.  Fortunately we both like "simple".

 

I do all the cat clean up, I had the cats before we married, so feel they are more my responsibility, although he does love them and serves as a Lap for all cats.

Most all surfaces are covered by books that are moved about, so not too much dust gathers there.  It looks a bit cluttered.....well, it is cluttered, but since it doesn't bother either of us, so what.  He is also learning to cover the butter when finished, and throw away empty containers when appropriate. 

 

Actually, both being retired, we do everything together.  Shop, read, errands.....all the things, I guess that many (most I suppose) women have to shoulder the responsibility for, as husband is away at work.  And I consider that a fair way of doing things.

 

I was always the "strong" one before.  It was my Aunt and I on our own, and she was ill the last 4 or 5 years of her life, so it all fell on me.  I had to do it, so I did it.  I'm learning to ask for help, and my husband, bless him, is upset when I don't ask.

x

It's very interesting to hear how the two of you do things. It's nice the two of you do a lot of things together . That's what I'd want to do, too, later on.

 

Sometimes I can't believe though, how there are some men out there, who work and whose wife works just as much, and they still insist that the wife has to do everything! This has me . So oldfashioned! (it was on Dr. Phil a while ago) [/rant]

 

In the end it's about compromise between two people and a situation that they're both happy with.

 

I don't believe one needs to disinfect one's own TV remote! But I do believe people should wash their hands after having been to the toilet (with normal soap), or after cleaning something dirty etc.

[pontalba]

x

It's very interesting to hear how the two of you do things. It's nice the two of you do a lot of things together . That's what I'd want to do, too, later on.

 

Sometimes I can't believe though, how there are some men out there, who work and whose wife works just as much, and they still insist that the wife has to do everything! This has me . So oldfashioned! (it was on Dr. Phil a while ago) [/rant]

 

In the end it's about compromise between two people and a situation that they're both happy with.

 

I don't believe one needs to disinfect one's own TV remote! But I do believe people should wash their hands after having been to the toilet (with normal soap), or after cleaning something dirty etc.

 

Yeah, that is a bit of a head-banger!  I know there are men like that out there.  Hopefully, it's less and less as women become more self aware and able to get out from under that sort of situation.  Sometimes it simply comes down to money.  It has to be terrible to be caught up in a situation where the husband holds sway over the wife, only because she is either afraid, or unable to support herself and the children. 

 

Agreed, re compromise.  Absolutely.

 

LOL  agreed!

[Kreader]

I do all the cleaning up at home.  I have the whole place to myself.  I must admit that I do hate dusting so I don't give much attention to the shelves.  I do focus on keeping all surfaces in the kitchen clean, dishes washed and laundry done.  I also spend a lot of time cleaning the bathroom.  I too don't like the sound of the vacuum cleaner so I mostly sweep and mop leaving the vacuum cleaner for extreme emergencies.  Yes I can sometimes leave the bed untidy which I can live with as long as the sheets have been changed regularly.  Windows get wiped every so often and I don't disinfect any tv remote, phone or even door handles.  I depend on washing my hands after using the toilet, before preparing meals, after sneezing/coughing or if they're dirty.  I; get hayfever so there's a limit on how long I can leave the shelves before dusting.  I don't spend much on all those different cleaners.  My allergies prevent that.  After putting on protective gloves its soap, water, vinegar, baking soda and bleach for cleaning.

[pontalba]

Of course, for health's sake, many things must be down.  It's the obsessive neatness and lengths that some people go to that slay me. 

 

And that is what I think, in the end, the article was about.  Controlling obsessive behavior.  No one wants to live in true filth, but a little dirt never hurt anyone.  Good grief, there'd be no humans left if that were the case. 

[Kreader]

Pontalba, 

 

my big sis is a bit OCD when it comes to cleaning and keeping things in their place.  She admits this.  I recall that she used to iron my nephew's undies, y-fronts for a two year old.  You couldn't even see the undies under the iron!  She's a bit better now but when she gets too stressed out then she'll go over the top.

[frankie]

I've not read the article, but I just wanted to say I found it curious that Brits might find the word 'filth' funny... In a dirty way. I mean when pontalba asked if somebody could change the thread, in the Ask a Mod thread, I wondered what was the naughty word that demanded taking care of it... maybe 'NYT'?? So funny how different the dialects are...