Julie ~ "Lucky" 2013 ~ Booklist

[julie]

Yes, that would definitely be strange. That'd be like hanging out with people who are your kid's age . So that may have been a red flag .

 

 

We had a murder of a girl from our town LONG ago. In fact, we played together a couple times as kids. Our moms were sorta friends. They didnt hang out a lot together,but occasionally ,so I remember going to her house a couple times .She was a year younger than me. In the summer we got married, it was her senoir year and she had just graduated.

She had a boyfriend,and they supposedly went to a bar-type place that night,and never came home. The police found their bodies 2days later in a wooded-park area bewtween our town and the town the bar was in .

Many rumors went around ,one that they were in a drug-buying -deal gone bad,but I dont think that would've been it,she wasn't the type who would have ever done things like that .Another was that her boyfriend was working with the police to find the head of a drug-selling operation in our area. That could have been it-- her boyfriend was older than me,and may have been into that .I never met him .

 

Anyhow, it was SO sad ... made big news around here because our town is jus ta wee little place where nothing ever happens . The police were SURE they knew who did it but never able to get enough on him .They had a trial and found him not guilty for lack of evidence . Last year, an elderly man from another state claimed on his deathbed, that HE had shot them .It wasnt the guy the cops think did it,but he had lived in the area at the time of the murders. The police chief in our town said he didnt think the guy did it,he thinks the guy just wanted attention for himself before he died. They had scheduled a trial,but he died before it happened ,so I dont think we'll ever know if he really did it or not .

 

There was a little girl from a church I went to as a teen who was abducted and murdered ,too. It was horrible,especially seeing what it did to her family .They've never recovered from that,and it happend probably 30 -some years ago .They caught that guy and he got the death penalty .They killed him about 5 years ago ,but it didn't help her family feel any better that he had been killed. Their little girl still never got to grow up and live the life she deserved.

 

Anyhow, I'm hoping that the people who write the true crime books ,and do all the research into these guys,find out what kind of home life they had, find out if they had some form of mental illness ,etc. This will possibly help find these guys and possibly stop some of these crimes before it happens. If they can learn anything by these books,then they are well worth it for people to write them .

Edited January 14, 2013 by julie

[frankie]

Frankie

Do you ever recall hearing a news story or anything about this case ? It happened in 1970,but has never really been officially wrapped up,since the killer is still missing. I thought maybe they had tv shows over there like here,where they show cold cases ? I'd sure like to know where this guy went .

 

I don't think I have. It was a decade before I was born and for some reason I'm more familiar with true crime that has happened in the States than any other country (like Australia in this case), maybe that's because a lot of the TV shows over here are American, and we get these true crime TV shows that are American, too, just like you figured we might have. I watch pretty much all of those shows I can catch, except for drug related stuff and mob related stuff, those don't interest me in the same way.

 

There's something really sad and horrible and haunting about cases that are never resolved, or where the killer has managed to escape and can't be found for some reason. People need and want closure. And of course we need to have those killers locked up so they won't be out there, possibly killing more people.

 

It reminds me of a case that happened over here that was almost identical . I can't remember what state it happend in,but a man did the same thing,and came up missing for decades. They showed the case on America's Most Wanted,with an aged picture of the killer,and someone actually called in saying this guy was their neighbor. He had started a whole new life, been married, lived I think 30 years without being caught .

 

I can't imagine what it must've been like for the wife to found out her husband was one of America's most wanted men

 

I had it for my Kindle ,or I would have been happy to send it to you .

 

No worries Julie, it'll come up somewhere, but thanks for the thought, that's sweet of you!

 

The friend I mentioned knew her killer too. They had been friends for at least six months and hung out frequently.

 

I'm sorry about your friend, Devi! I hope the killer's locked up for good this time!

[frankie]

i generally use the 100 page rule but I adapt it according to the size of a book. Occasionally though I just know when I am not going to like a book, last year it was The Slap as the language put me off almost immediately...

 

I'm sorry you didn't like The Slap It's on my TBR pile, I know it's very controversial but I still want to read it.

 

Julie, I wanted to mention a book I'm reading, Dangerous Instincts, Use An FBI Profiler's tactics to avoid unsafe situations by Mary Ellen O'Toole, Ph.D. You might like it, some interesting anecdotes about serial killers are given too. A lot of what she says is common sense.

 

I'm adding that to my wishlist as well, thanks!

 

Julie, that's so awful about the young couple who got murdered, and the child who was abducted and murdered!

 

Anyhow, I'm hoping that the people who write the true crime books ,and do all the research into these guys,find out what kind of home life they had, find out if they had some from of mental illness ,etc. This will possibly help find these guys and possibly stop some of these crimes before it happens.

 

This is definitely one of the goals and I hope they can come up with some kind of waterproof theories in the future, so at least some of the horrors could be prevented.

[julie]

Frankie

Yea, I didnt know your exact age, but figured that crime happened long before you were born or aware of it happening. I would have been about about 12 then I think .

Anyhow ,I read lots of true crime,and recently have found a few books on true crimes that happened it Australia ,so I read those ,because it's NEW information .

 

There's another fascinating one that happened over there. I'm thinking it was maybe in the 60's ?? Not sure,but it was 2 kids I think ,who lived close to the beach,and they went there to swim one day and came up missing. I think that was also unsolved. Do you know the one I'm thinking of ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unsolved_murders_in_Australia

 

Here it is -- a list of unsolved crimes in Australia -- it's the Wanda Beach Murders --

Edited January 14, 2013 by julie

[frankie]

Anyhow ,I read lots of true crime,and recently have found a few books on true crimes that happened it Australia ,so I read those ,because it's NEW information .

 

Yeah I totally get why you would want to broaden your horizons and read true crime stories that have taken place in other countries, I'm sure you're more or less familiar with most of the American cases. Kylie's told me about some of Australia's most notorious cases, I have listed some titles on my wishlist, I'll go and get them for you in a minute.

 

There's another fascinating one that happened over there. I'm thinking it was maybe in the 60's ?? Not sure,but it was 2 kids I think ,who lived close to the beach,and they went there to swim one day and came up missing. I think that was also unsolved. Do you know the one I'm thinking of ?

 

http://en.wikipedia....rs_in_Australia

 

Here it is -- a list of unsolved crimes in Australia -- it's the Wanda Beach Murders --

 

No, I haven't heard of that one either, I'm not sure whether Kylie would know about it either...

 

Here are the titles that I've written down, regarding Australian true crime:

 

a) Australian True Crime

All Things Bright and Beautiful: Murder in the City of Light by Susan Mitchell (Snowtown murders)

Port Arthur - A Story of Strength and Courage by Margaret Scott

Shantaram by Gregory David Roberts (I think this might be fiction based on real events? I can't remember for sure)

Sins of the Brother: The Definitive Story of Ivan Milat and the Backpacker Murders by Whittaker & Kennedy (BCF true crime thread)

Snowtown Murders: The Real Story Behind the Bodies in the Barrels Killings by Andrew McGarry

Snowtown: The Bodies in Barrels Murders - The Grisly Story of Australia's Worst Serial Killings by Jeremy Pudney

Suddenly One Sunday - The True Story of the Port Arthur Tragedy Based on Eyewitness Accounts by Mike Bingham

Where's Peter? Unravelling the Falconio Mystery by Roger Maynard

 

Of course now that I look at the titles, there are more than one title per case, so there's overlapping.

[julie]

Frankie

SO sorry, I keep thinking you're from Australia too ! Are murders very prevalent in your country ? I know very little about it truthfully,so haven't heard much about murders that have occurred there,although I think anyplace there are PEOPLE,there are usually murders at one time or another .

Are there are famous cases in Finland ?

 

Thanks for the list of Autralian crimes-- I'll take a look and see if they are avaialble here . I'm always interested in reading about ones that are new to me . Gives my brain something new to think about I guess .

 

 

You are always so organized with your books and lists. I think you should be elected the Book Club Forum Librarian,and any book-related questions we have, or book lists we want, we should all ask you .

[Devi]

Frankie

Yea, I didnt know your exact age, but figured that crime happened long before you were born or aware of it happening. I would have been about about 12 then I think .

Anyhow ,I read lots of true crime,and recently have found a few books on true crimes that happened it Australia ,so I read those ,because it's NEW information .

 

There's another fascinating one that happened over there. I'm thinking it was maybe in the 60's ?? Not sure,but it was 2 kids I think ,who lived close to the beach,and they went there to swim one day and came up missing. I think that was also unsolved. Do you know the one I'm thinking of ?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Unsolved_murders_in_Australia

 

Here it is -- a list of unsolved crimes in Australia -- it's the Wanda Beach Murders --

 

I instantly knew of which case you speak of, it's quite famous in Australia. It's widely known as the Beaumont children here.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Devi

[julie]

Yea, Devi

That's it . Did they ever think they had a serious suspect ,or they never had any evidence of any possible person ?

[Devi]

Yea, Devi

That's it . Did they ever think they had a serious suspect ,or they never had any evidence of any possible person ?

 

There was a sketch of a person of interest, but no, they never did really have a name or anything. It is also thought, but never proven, that the same man is the suspect in another abduction case.

 

Here is a quote from the site that best describes how well known the case is in Australia.

 

The disappearance of the Beaumont children in Adelaide in 1966 has become part of Australian folklore. Nobody under the age of 40 was alive when it happened, but few Australians today have not heard of the children. The disappearance is a tragedy that has become a cultural landmark in modern Australian history.

 

http://www.beaumontchildren.com/

[frankie]

Frankie

SO sorry, I keep thinking you're from Australia too !

 

Hehe, no worries I'd be proud and happy to be an Australian, I'd get to meet my good friend Kylie a lot more often and I could meet with the other cool Aussie members we have on here, for example Devi!

 

Are murders very prevalent in your country ? I know very little about it truthfully,so haven't heard much about murders that have occurred there,although I think anyplace there are PEOPLE,there are usually murders at one time or another .

Are there are famous cases in Finland ?

 

Compared to the States, we come wayyyy behind in the murder statistics. For one, we have a lot more stricter gun policies. But I think we have a few famous cases. I think when I was discussing the Lake Bodom murders on here, someone recognised the case and had heard about it. The Kyllikki Saari murder is one of the most known case in Finland, everybody knows about it (well I don't know about the younger generations these days...) and it happened in the 1950s.

 

I know this sounds awful, but do you know the top 50 list of spree killers? We've had two school spree killers, both of which have made the list, but the other one was dropped off the list a bit later. Here's the Kauhajoki school shooting and the Jokela school shooting.

 

And this isn't really here nor there, but Aileen Wuornos's grandparents were born in Finland and of Finnish descent.

 

You are always so organized with your books and lists. I think you should be elected the Book Club Forum Librarian,and any book-related questions we have, or book lists we want, we should all ask you .

 

Aww thanks, you flatter me I'll see if I can find a list of Finnish cases for you on the wiki.

[julie]

Devi

Thank you for the link on the Beaumont case. I'll definitely read through all the links of it today. Read the first part of it ,but not all the links yet. These unsolved cases are fascinatinng because you try to figure out who the heck would do such a thing and how they get away without getting caught. I keep thinking they make so many advances in forensics annd the police have so many more tools at their disposal now to find killers that not as many people get away with murder.but I think there are still a few that slip through the cracks. We have serial killers here that go for years and never get caught .

 

 

Frankie

Yes, I think lots of people would love to live in Australia or at least visit. It looks like a beautiful country .

Thanks for mentioning the Bodom Lake Murders, and yes, now I remember you mentioning them before . I saw a youtube video about the case. That was the one where 3 people went camping and someone murdered them ,right ? 2 girls and one guy ?

 

I'll take a look at your top 50 list and get back to you shortly .

Edited January 15, 2013 by julie

[frankie]

Thanks for mentioning the Bodom Lake Murders, and yes, now I remember you mentioning them before . I saw a youtube video about the case. That was the one where 3 people went camping and someone murdered them ,right ? 2 girls and one guy ?

 

It was four teenagers who went camping, one of them survived the attack. It was two 18yo. boys and two 15yo girls. The boy who survived was one of the main suspects, and he was actually charged with the murders in 2004, but was in the end found not guilty. It's still a mystery who did it and will probably remain so.

 

Here's a little wiki link on Finland and murders.

[julie]

Frankie

Yes, I agree that gun control would definitely put a little bit of a damper on the crazy people that wanna shoot up a building full of people. They say they are going to attempt to make stricter laws here after the recent elementary school shooting in Connecticut. I sure hope they can do something about the situation. I don't think they will ever figure out a way to completely eliminate it,but there's gotta be more they can do .

Some of the names on the shooter's list are familier -- the Virginia Tech shooter ,and Adam Lanza was the Connecticut guy .

The first Texas guy was the Luby cafeteria shooter who went in and shot people eating in the restaurant .

The San Diego guy was the McDonalds shooter ...

The Whitman guy was in the tower at a college and shot several college kids below him walking around outside that day .

I remember several of the postal workers long ago --that term was given --going postal ,because several guys who worked in post offices got angry about something at their job and came back and shot up the place.

I remember the guy who shot several of his family members ,those are fairly common too .

The Texas one was in the army base down there when one of the soldiers went off the deep end and shot several fellow soldiers.

I remember the Norway one which is number 1 on the list --the one out on the island where the kids were in the political convention type camp to learn more about government or some such thing .

 

So I remember most all of the ones here ,and have heard of some of the others.

The school shooting in Connecticut was probably the most eterrifying,because,although we have had LOTS of school shootings here, that one wasn't a student,but an adult who went into a school with little kids and shot them for no reason. SO scarey !!

The problem with all these shootings is,it never fails to rile up someone else,and either another shooting occurs, or someone else is caught planning a school shooting .

 

It's a pretty scarey world out there anymore,isn't it ?

[julie]

Frankie

That must be why I only thought there were 3 kids-- 3 were killed. Iforgot about the 4th boy .

 

The one about the lady found in the over was an odd one, wasn't it ? And the husband ended up getting off because he maybe hadn't INTENDED on killing her ? His story about gypsies breaking in and killing her ?

Good grief,that one is strange .

 

 

The earlier one you mentioned about the girl on her way home from a church event -- it sounds like the second guy they mentioned ,the Hans guy,sounds like the most likely suspect . It sure looks like a tiny list of murders in your country. It'd be nice to live in such a safe place .

[Devi]

Hehe, no worries I'd be proud and happy to be an Australian, I'd get to meet my good friend Kylie a lot more often and I could meet with the other cool Aussie members we have on here, for example Devi!

 

Aww shucks Frankie I would love it if I could meet you one day!

 

 

 

 

Probably the most famous mass shooting we have here in Australia would be the Port Arthur Massacre. It happened in Tasmania - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia).

 

Because of the shooting gun laws were tightened and restricted here in Australia. My aunt worked as a prison officer for a few years, and worked at the same prison the killer is in. She mentioned he was a bit of a sicko. I would love it if my aunt wrote a book about her work in prisons, she has told me a few work related stories.

[bookmonkey]

I read a lot of true crime books too. I'm interested in why people do things like that. Here (in NZ) nearly all murder victims know their killer, often domestic violence, or, very sadly, child abuse. Unfortunately, we have a really high rate of child deaths from abuse. We have had a few mass killings too, the worst being Aramoana in 1990 where, 13 were killed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramoana_massacre) In 1992 a guy killed seven members of his own family, and in 1997 a guy shot eleven people, killing six, in a tiny little village. We have really tight gun laws here.

[julie]

Devi

Yes, Ibet your aunt would have so many interesting stories to tell about her job and the people she met .

The killer in the article you sent has the most Life Sentences I've ever seen --35 ! We've had people here get Life plus 99 years ,so either way you look at it,they are coming out feet first .

 

Does your country not have the death penalty or did they at one time ?

 

Ours has had it ,but off and on a state may change their rules and eliminate the death penalty. some states have it,while others don't . Our state has it ,but usually the guys who get a death sentence live at least another 20 years til all their appeals have been lapsed . Our state is very sluggish about carrrying out the death sentence . We hear cases quite often when guys try to use really stupid reasons why they shouldnt be on death row. The latest guy said he was too overweight and that he would have undue pain when they tried to find a vein to put his IV in . His lawyer tried to get a stay on that ,but I "think" -- sorry, I can't remember ,but I think he was killed last year anyhow . His victims went through undue pain, I'm sure,so why shoukd he have it any easier ?

 

I myself don't believe in the death penalty because I don't feel it is our place to kill a person, even if it's done legally by the courts and lawmakers. Also, we have had innocent men killed for crimes they didnt commit. If we make one mistake like that, we are just as bad as the murderers because we killed a person who wasn't guilty .

 

 

 

 

Bookmonkey

Yes, I think it's sadly pretty common here too that we have lots of domestic cases that end in deaths, we have kids killed by their parents too . Very sad situations and way too common .

Our country seems to have a really hard time making stricter gun laws . They do have some in place ,and sadly, the last big shooting we had ,right before Christmas was the one when 20 little kids were killed by a lunatic who walked into their school and started firing .

The schools all have lots of security measuers -- we are a wee little town,but we have all new schools with every security measuer they can use ,and it still wouldnt be impossible for the same thing to happen here. It's really terrifying .

That last guy who killed the kids actually went to buy a gun and our gun laws turned him down - he had a history of mental issues and had been on mind-altering drugs(antidepressants),so they turned him down.

His MOTHER had 3 guns in her house,though,so he located them shot and killed her,then went to the school and killed so many little kids. I blame a lot of that situation on his mom. He lived with her,she knew he had mental issues, but yet she kept 3 guns in the house. NOT SMART .

 

The lawmakers are talking a lot about stricter gun laws and what more they can do to make it safer ,but I'm not sure if they can come up with a totally perfect solution . People can still get ahold of guns if they want them bad enough,and this guy kicked in one of the glass doors or windows,so all their "security measuers" couldnt prevent that from happening .

 

We also have a lot of people here who want all their freedom, so they are against the government stepping into their lives and making these rules that infringe on their freedoms. I understand that to some extent,but we sometimes have to give up our freedoms a bit to make it a safer place to live.

 

Thanks for visitng by the way --- and what are some memorable true crime books you've read ? I'm always on search for some new ones .

[julie]

4 --Wicked Women of Northeast Ohio -Jane Ann Turzillo 4/5

 

Well, I made a library trip yesterday and found some new true crime books ,so I picked them up. This one was the first . I thought it had a catchy title,and since I live in northeast Ohio, I thought it'd be neat to read some history of our area,and I wasn't disappointed. This book has 10 cases of women behaing badly, let's say .

Ilearned quite a bit by reading it,because the main way that a woman commits a murder is usually the least "messy" way,so they tend to use poison ,or sometimes a gun .

not all THESE ladies did that. all the cases took place in the late 1880's up to about 1910 . They gave a wide assortment of cases of women killers,and many weapons . One used a hatchet,one a knife, one an axe,then poison for a couple .

Nost of the stories were ladies who killed because of or FOR a man ... they were either angry because their husband cheated on them or THOUGHT he had . My favorite story was one in which a lady wanted to go to a Bridge Party and her husband didnt want to go,and told her he didnt like her firends she hung out with,so she tied him up in the bedsheets and beat him to death with a table -leg. I guess she showed HIM ,didnt she ?

It was also interesting to read about the jury trials because in those days, they had all-men juries . Also this was around the time when women were pushing for more rights and to be treated as an equal to a man. I think there lots of men who "ruled the roost" at home,and ladies didnt like it,so the ladies on trial usually had large fan clubs of women who loved going to watch their trials and cheer them on .

The ladies rarely EVER got a stiff sentence ,lots of times none at all, others just a short time in jail for murder ,and they became celebrities of a sort ,maybe because they were brave enough to stand up for their rights,although picking up an axe might be standing a little too firmly .

Anyhow, a very interesting book .

[Devi]

Devi

Does your country not have the death penalty or did they at one time ?

 

Ours has had it ,but off and on a state may change their rules and eliminate the death penalty. some states have it,while others don't . Our state has it ,but usually the guys who get a death sentence live at least another 20 years til all their appeals have been lapsed . Our state is very sluggish about carrrying out the death sentence . We hear cases quite often when guys try to use really stupid reasons why they shouldnt be on death row. The latest guy said he was too overweight and that he would have undue pain when they tried to find a vein to put his IV in . His lawyer tried to get a stay on that ,but I "think" -- sorry, I can't remember ,but I think he was killed last year anyhow . His victims went through undue pain, I'm sure,so why shoukd he have it any easier ?

 

I myself don't believe in the death penalty because I don't feel it is our place to kill a person, even if it's done legally by the courts and lawmakers. Also, we have had innocent men killed for crimes they didnt commit. If we make one mistake like that, we are just as bad as the murderers because we killed a person who wasn't guilty .

 

Yeah we had capital punishment at one time, it was last used in 1967. At this time only 114 people were executed by hanging in the 20th century. Here is some more information if you are curious - http://en.wikipedia....t_in_Australia. It's something that was bought over with the British, but it wasn't until 2010 that federal legislation prohibited capital punishment in all Australian states and territories. But all the states had abolished it way before then.

 

 

I'm also against capital punishment, to me, living day in day out knowing you will never leave a small prison cell, and having to watch your back with other prison mates is more of a punishment than being given the death penalty in my opinion. Depending on the crime, that person may not live long anyway if some of the other prisoners have any say. Example, most don't take kindly to pedophiles. Within prisons, they seem to have their own forms of punishment depending on the criminal from what my aunt tells me.

 

I do believe in karma.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Devi

[poppyshake]

I did read somewhere that states with the death penalty had a worse (murder) crime rate than those without .. not sure if that's correct.

 

Sadly it's getting easier here to acquire guns but still it's quite unusual for anyone to have one (let alone more) in their homes (with the exception of farmers etc) so the temptation is greatly lessened. Even with stricter gun laws it's going to be extremely difficult to stop this kind of thing happening in the states .. it will still be fairly easy to get hold of one but anything that could lessen the frequency of these atrocities is surely welcome.

 

I don't believe in the death penalty either .. for one thing it sends innocent people to their deaths as you say (which is murder) but it's a difficult one isn't it? It costs so much money to keep murderers in prison and then you read stories that they have internet and TV and even a facebook page and the gym and trips out and whatnot. My mind goes around and around on the subject .. I'm glad it's not me who has to decide these things. If it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that they committed the crime (and can it ever be? .. you even get people admitting to crimes they had nothing to do with) that they've taken innocent lives and not in self defence or under extreme provocation then they should lose their liberty and live out the rest of their lives in captivity living the most spartan existence that is humanely possible. But then, they're not in their right minds are they? Who in their right mind would kill anyone? let alone a roomful of children? and so it comes down to diminished responsibilities and how do you deal with that? Still, without the gun .. it's probable that they would only harm themselves so something needs to be done .. and I agree Julie, parents need to be just as vigilant as the law. Don't keep guns at home if you have a teenager with mental health issues (I know it seems as if all teenagers have mental health issues but often when you read about these particular people the warning signs have been there for all to see for some time).

Then there's the influence of TV/movies/games etc .. I was reading something recently where someone said that what we see has no influence and someone else said 'in that case .. why do we advertise?'

 

Oh I'm waffling now because I just don't know what the solution is or if there is one

[julie]

Amen to that Devi

 

Definitely ,what goes around comes around,although child molesters in our jails usually have a separate area of the prison,to prevent them fron being killed because the other prisoners would kill them .

I also agree that life in a jail cell would be far worse than laying down, getting a shot and falling asleep. WAY too easy .

Most guys on trial ,if it's a case that they COULD get the death penalty,lots of them ASK for it, because they dont WANT to live in jail for their entire life . I like it when the judge won't allow them to have it--and makes them live their entire life locked up like animals in a cage. Better punishment .

[julie]

Miss Poppy

The studies show that the death penalty is not a deterrent. I don't think ANYONE that has it in their mind to kill someone will ever stop and think maybe I shouldnt do this ,because I'll get the death penalty. When you are in a killing frame of mind, then THAT is all you are thinking about.

 

It does cost a lot to keep the prisoner alive for life,but it costs more if they are on death row,due to the number of appeals they can have so they have the cost of trial after trial, lawyers fees, judges, juries,the stays of execution at the last minute,those may go on for a long time ... etc .. much less costly to feed them .

 

All the jails dont have the amenities .I don't think any of them have tv's in their cells (unless it's a jail like Martha Stewart was in ).I think access to the computers may be limited to those researching their cases or possibly taking GED classes,although sometimes things slip through the cracks and they use the computers for online connecting with the outside world. I'd think they'd keep that stuff blocked somehow on the computers but not sure if they can do that or not.

Most of them probably have weight-lifting rooms. They seem to see it as a way for these guys to get out their aggressions, but I see it as a way for them to build up more muscles and be more dangerous to other inmates and guards.

 

I may be in the extreme minority here,but I think ANYONE is capable of murder ,given the right circumstances . If someone pushes you far enough and makes you angry enough, and a gun was readily available, I think it'd be easy enough in the moment to pick it up and use it .

 

Or ,what about the ladies who are married to abusers ? If they are beat on long enough,they may eventually come to the breaking point and nail the guy .

 

Or ,how about someone who is driving, not paying attention and they hit another car or person and kill them ?

 

You're right, Poppy. It is a very multi-layered situation and one rule can't apply to everyone .

[bree]

I did read somewhere that states with the death penalty had a worse (murder) crime rate than those without .. not sure if that's correct.

 

Sadly it's getting easier here to acquire guns but still it's quite unusual for anyone to have one (let alone more) in their homes (with the exception of farmers etc) so the temptation is greatly lessened. Even with stricter gun laws it's going to be extremely difficult to stop this kind of thing happening in the states .. it will still be fairly easy to get hold of one but anything that could lessen the frequency of these atrocities is surely welcome.

 

I don't believe in the death penalty either .. for one thing it sends innocent people to their deaths as you say (which is murder) but it's a difficult one isn't it? It costs so much money to keep murderers in prison and then you read stories that they have internet and TV and even a facebook page and the gym and trips out and whatnot. My mind goes around and around on the subject .. I'm glad it's not me who has to decide these things. If it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that they committed the crime (and can it ever be? .. you even get people admitting to crimes they had nothing to do with) that they've taken innocent lives and not in self defence or under extreme provocation then they should lose their liberty and live out the rest of their lives in captivity living the most spartan existence that is humanely possible. But then, they're not in their right minds are they? Who in their right mind would kill anyone? let alone a roomful of children? and so it comes down to diminished responsibilities and how do you deal with that? Still, without the gun .. it's probable that they would only harm themselves so something needs to be done .. and I agree Julie, parents need to be just as vigilant as the law. Don't keep guns at home if you have a teenager with mental health issues (I know it seems as if all teenagers have mental health issues but often when you read about these particular people the warning signs have been there for all to see for some time).

Then there's the influence of TV/movies/games etc .. I was reading something recently where someone said that what we see has no influence and someone else said 'in that case .. why do we advertise?'

 

Oh I'm waffling now because I just don't know what the solution is or if there is one

I really like what you've expressed poppyshake, and I feel the same way too.

There was recently an inhuman and horrific gang-rape incident (the girl eventually died due to the injuries) which shook our country and almost everyone wants the accused hanged. I'm not quite sure it will act as a deterrent either, or if is in even sufficient punishment.

 

julie, sorry for posting off-topic on your thread, I popped in to wish you a happy reading year, and to ask you what the "Lucky" in your title was for - and I got pulled in by the discussion here.

[Devi]

Definitely ,what goes around comes around,although child molesters in our jails usually have a separate area of the prison,to prevent them fron being killed because the other prisoners would kill them .

 

They do here too, but my aunt has told me stories about how some officers will sometimes look the other way if a criminal is a real sicko. Sometimes they get mixed in with others during their yard time. In 2010 a famous murderer was killed by another prsioner in a maximum prison and it's widely believed that the gaurds basically lookef the other way by letting him and his killer mix in the same room. Despite significant risks being identified.

 

Here is a little information on the criminal from wikipedia:

 

Carl Anthony Williams (13 October 1970 - 19 April 2010) was a convicted murderer and drug trafficker from the Australian state of Victoria. He was the central figure in the Melbourne gangland killings.

 

He was sentenced to life imprisonment with a non-parole period of 35 years for ordering the murders of three people and conspiracy to murder a fourth (which was unsuccessful). On 19 April 2010, while incarcerated at Barwon Prison, Williams was beaten to death with the stem of an exercise bike by another inmate, Matthew Charles Johnson.

 

Williams enlisted the help of others willing to perform the contract killings in exchange for large payments of cash. At the time of his death, he was in the maximum security Acacia unit of HM Prison Barwon near Geelong. Williams would have been 71 before he was eligible for parole.

 

HM Prison Barwon was the last prison my aunt worked in before she followed a different career path. She worked in three I believe.

[julie]

Bree

No problem going off topic in here. I am all the time yakking about something or other,so my whole thread goes off topic all the time. Doesnt matter to me, it's nice to have people come in and comment .

The word Lucky in my title was just because the year is 2013 --- and some superstitious people believe 13 is an unlucky number,so I added Lucky to mine .

Yes, I think we heard about the gang rape on our news.but I hadn't heard many details of it . Terribly sad situation .

 

Devi

Yea, I guess sometimes the same thing happens over here. I remember that's how Jeffrey Dahmer met his demise. Somehow, he was in with at least one other guy,who killed him . The guy didnt have anything to loose, he already had a life sentence. I guess he figured the jail would be better off if they didnt have Dahmer there .

Can't say I blame them,quite an oddball . He grew up in our state,about 30 minutes from here .