Angury
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Posts posted by Angury
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I admit that Tolkien does tend to go overboard with his narrative, especially near the end where you think everything is settled but Surprise! 200 more pages to go but it all has a point. He basically created a world from zero, with kingdoms, races, cities, gods, an entire mythology, history and language. I'd say that you really do need descriptions and long narratives to unfold these to the reader. GRRM's universe pales by comparison so I do not see the need for his narrative.
Do you mean GRRM's universe pales in comparison in terms of the scale of the world, or the writing, or the background (or something else)?
I guess it boils down to what you look for in a fantasy series.
Also, the actual usefulness of his descriptions is not that big. Certain characters do not move around much so filling the pages with useless details around their surroundings and actions is just a waste.
By move around, do you mean moving around physically? Certainly I agree that many characters stay in the same locations over several chapters, if not several books, and some people have become frustrated with
Daenerys's character, and her stagnation in Meereen
but I wouldn't say this is a big issue. Much of the battle goes on in the characters heads, and that's where the story really develops. A plot line isn't necessarily continued through the wars (although it has been at times), but within the dialogues between the characters and the ongoing schemes behind peoples backs. The story is much more than a couple of wars and battles upon a field - it is a story about the wars between generations and their families, the rich and the poor. It goes far, far deeper.
Immersion is needed in every fiction book but it tells a lot about the author's value if he manages to do it in 200 pages or 2000.
Finally something we can agree on..
As to your last paragraph, this is where I am in opposite thinking. The point of fantasy is to be as far away as possible from real life. That's why the author makes a new world in the first place. The moment you place ordinary things in your fantasy book, that books stops being part of the genre. Now of course you could take inspiration from real life, or put out a message from the real world through the fantasy idea, I mean Tolkien did exactly that with LOTR, and you can see this in many examples, like... the Japanese version of Godzilla but the complexity of human life can be put forth in many other ways, mediums and genres and I don't feel the need to see them explained in my *go away real world* novel.
.. and another thing that we don't.
I agree that one of the big attractions of Fantasy is the escapism that it offers. However, I would argue that integrating new worlds with the world of the reader is where Fantasy books become successful. This doesn't necessarily have to be the real world that we live and breathe and call Earth, but the worlds inside our minds.
Let me give you an example. The Harry Potter series used to be one of my all-time favourite series as a child. This was in part because of the imagination that it offered to my teenage mind. But it was also because when I started reading the books I was the same age as Harry. I grew up with him and his friends. Yes, it was about wishing you had been invited to Hogwarts and that you could buy Bertie Botts Every Flavour Beans, but it was also about things like having too much homework to do after class, having that one teacher who seemed to hate you, having arguments with your friends, developing a crush and then being embarrassed by it. It was these little connections with my own, internal world that not only made the Hogwarts real to me, but also gave me hope and comfort.
I think if a Fantasy series is completely disconnected from reality, then it would be un-relatable to the reader, and for me, it would feel like a pointless read.
People often seem fixed on the idea that in fantasy (and in most movies and books where there is a conflict) everything is black and white and most of them come with the argument that GRRM paints a grey/dark world but the same can be said about many many other books, from LOTR, to Paradise Lost or even To Kill a Mockingbird.
Out of interest, where do you find the grey areas in LOTR?
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Well for one thing I thought It would be actually fantasy. You know, dragons and orcs and wizards and stuff. And yes some of these things do come into the story at some point as far as I know but I will not bother reading more than 1000 pages of your book just on the promise that they will show up eventually.
I suppose this boils down to what you consider Fantasy. I think there are various sub-genres, and the Fantasy that you refer to is akin to Tolkien's legacy. For example, the Discworld series by Terry Pratchett is one of my favourite 'fantasy' series - but I don't think dragons or orcs feature much within it. To me though, that is still fantasy.
But yes, I can see why, if you are a lover of Tolkien then A Song of Ice and Fire may not appeal to you.
The writing is all over the place and mostly tiresome with endless non-important descriptions of non-important locations. Yeah I really need to know how a certain room is arranged because.. you know... that's what makes a book good...?
For me.. yes. This is one of the things that makes a Fantasy series good (for me). One of the attractions of the Fantasy genre is the ability to fully immerse yourself within another world, and this is prompted by the writers ability to paint a picture within our heads. These types of rich descriptions that go into detail about the feeling of sunlight on ones arms or the smell of the marketplace are what opens the doors to this new world. Without these details I would feel left behind as a reader - as if I wasn't experiencing this world fully.
And given the fact that GRRM tends to "unexpectedly" kill off many of them is really a kick in the reader's nuts (pardon my French). Oh give you this character, now invest emotionally into him just so I can murder him for no reason later. It's ok when authors do this if it;s well made and not done very often but when you become famous just based on this fact, then your charm is going to fade very fast. Kind of like complaining to Gordon Ramsay about the food and expecting NOT to be yelled at. It;s funny when he goes into a berserk rage at first but after a while it's just pathetic and predictable.
I think what has led Martin to be famous over this trait of killing off characters is that it reflects real life. It is a very common theme to read a book with the knowledge that all the heroes will survive to the end and the bad guys will fail. As a reader there is no sense of danger - in a way you already know the ending.
I find that Martin is very good at conveying the complexity of human life - that people do die, sometimes unexpectedly, sometimes in traumatic circumstances - not everyone who is good lives until they are one hundred and everyone who is evil die in a big pot of fire and ash. And in a world as harsh as Westeros, I think this type of violence and death reflects the reality of the world that the characters live in. It also highlights the brutality of war, and the consequences of the human vices - jealousy, hatred and envy. I often find that Fantasy writers glaze over this fact - they paint war as a sword fight between two people, resulting in one victor and a happily ever after. We don't get to see the aftermath - the blood and guts, the human loss, the families that are torn apart and the generations that are destroyed in the process.
I do appreciate why you may not enjoy the series (although I feel Martin is a better writer than most Fantasy authors who I have read), but I think that Martin shines a more realistic light over the genre of Fantasy - he has let go of the concept of black and white, of good and evil. I think he has made Fantasy more human.
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I was not very impressed by the book to be honest.
How come?
Was there something that you expected from the series that you felt it did not deliver?
What makes a good fantasy series in your opinion?
Apologies if my post sounds more like an an English examination that anything else, I am just curious.
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I'm glad you're enjoying the series. I agree, Martin is a good writer and that makes it so much easier to delve into the world of Westeros and really enter into the characters lives.
I too am a Fantasy fan and A Song of Ice and Fire is one of my favourite series. It offers an emotional depth into the characters that I haven't found with other fantasy books. It breaks down the boundary between good and evil and shows people as they really are - complex and damaged creatures.
The harsh realities painted in the series are also (I feel) a refreshing break from the other, more fairytale-esque worlds that are sometimes found in the Fantasy genre.
I find it interesting that you hate Cersei Lannister so much - I too was not a big fan of her, but now she is one of my favourite characters. I look forward to hearing how (and if) your thoughts on her change throughout the series.
Hope you enjoy this miserable Sunday afternoon with your book.
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I use Amazon for eBooks but for physical books I use Waterstones as I'm collecting points for a nice reward sometime in the future.
(Plus I love walking into Waterstones stores and having a look around. Every time I see a Waterstones in the high street I let out a squeal of delight).
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What a coincidence that you made this post exactly 125 year after his birth
I do agree with most of what you said and indeed, characters are (mostly) one dimensional but that kind of was the point. As far as fantasy goes these days, from almost every other author, to movies, Dungeons and Dragons and certain musicians , his influence can still be seen.
His work was heavily influenced by WW1 The good and evil conflict from the book was inspired by the good and evil conflict of WW1 and his participation in it. Sam Gamgee is actually your average WW1 soldier, a very small person caught in a very big conflict. The story of Beren and Luthien was inspired from himself and his wife.
I don't see why in this case being one dimensional is a bad thing, especially since that is the entire point. Gods are one dimensional too in mythology and religion and Tolkien took inspiration from both as well.
Have you read The Silmarillion and Children of Hurin? Excellent book imo and they explain a lot of the lore from the universe.
I don't wish to underestimate his influence on modern fantasy, and perhaps I am trying to interpret his works outside of their time. I am really comparing LOTR with a lot of modern fantasy that I read and enjoy and that is perhaps where my problem lies.
It is interesting to note his influences for his works, and while I agree that one dimensional characters aren't necessarily a bad thing in light of the background of mythology, I guess they are a big problem for me. Character development is one of the main reasons I read novels, and indeed why I enjoy fantasy, so for me it is a big disadvantage to be left with such simple characters. I feel as if I am simply reading a textbook otherwise.
Entering into a different world is of course another big reason to read fantasy, but I found it very difficult to enter the world of Middle Earth. I'm not sure if it was Tolkiens writing - while not brilliant, I wouldn't call it bad - or just the fact that I felt as if I didn't feel emotionally connected with the world. I knew the facts about where the cities and villages lay upon the map, yet the feeling of standing in a village, of feeling the wind in your hair and the smell of grass in your nostrils was missing from the books for me.
I haven't read the Children of Hurin, and it was initially on my to-read list, but as I came away so disappointed with LOTR I'm not sure if it would be worth reading?
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I come to this thread prepared to be slaughtered..
I used to consider myself a fantasy fan (not so much anymore unfortunately) and finally got around to reading both The Hobbit and LOTR. I was expecting a lot given my interest in both Fantasy from childhood and in authors who had cited Tolkien as their inspiration.
I have to say I was disappointed by LOTR (please don't hurt me).
I found the characters one-dimensional. Either you were good or you were bad. There did not seem to be any middle ground. Above all, the elves really frustrated me. It seemed as if to be an elf was to be a perfect being. Any item that had the prefix 'elvish' seemed to have near-perfect properties. I could find no depth in the characters. It felt as if there was a line drawn down the middle of the book, and everyone on one side was 'good' and everyone on the other was 'bad.' There was no escaping your fate. I felt no emotions as I read through the scenes, I gained no insight into the motives behind the actions or insight into the characters lives. I received a lot of facts, a lot of names of villages and cities, great Kingdoms and far-gone Kings.. but nothing about the turmoils that played within the characters lives. It all seemed very factual and straight forward.
I know I am missing something very big here. However, I would say that the one thing that stood out for me was the dialogue. Much of it was enchanting to read, almost as if you were opening a book of poetry. I can see why the LOTR films stuck to so much of the dialogue from the books - they seem to open the door to another world just through their rhythm and symmetry.
(I am really sorry but..) I have to say that I preferred the films to the books. I felt they captured the magic of Middle Earth in a way that I simply could not grasp through the books. The lack of insight into many of the characters minds just frustrated me so much. I felt like I was reading a history book filled with reams of facts and names yet no offering of humanity or emotion.
Perhaps if I return to the series a few years down the line I will be able to view it through more mature eyes. For now though, I would love to hear what makes fans love the book so much (and please be kind to my criticisms).
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Glad you enjoyed To Kill A Mockingbird - I agree that the characters have great depth to them, and that's where I feel so many lessons can be learnt from the novel.
Also, please give In Search of Lost Time a go. It is a beautiful piece of work which will never leave you. It is definitely worth undertaking, and is the type of novel that needs to be read slowly, one day at a time, so it shouldn't necessarily take up a large part of your reading time.
Other than that, I wish a happy new year and hope it is filled with joyous reading.
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I've started reading this yesterday and I am already 100 pages through. The writing is all over the place and feels... episodic and so far there's barely a trace of the acclaimed Atticus. Yeah you can tell he's a great dad but most of the action so far has been around the kids. It is enjoyable to read however and I assume the book does get better later.
Have your thoughts changed since?
To Kill a Mockingbird is one of my all-time favourites but it did take me a while to get into as well.
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Interesting discussion re LOTR.
I am planning on reading through The Hobbit and LOTR during my two-week travels starting tomorrow. I will be on a lot of plane journeys, trains and no doubt a lot of waiting time, and I was assuming that reading LOTR would offer some escape.
Is Tolkien's writing quite difficult to get into then?
I also have a couple of Pratchett's Discworld series lying around which I know for definite would offer a nice relaxing read, but I was hoping that I would finally be able to get through LOTR..
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I have just started reading The Piano Teacher by Elfriede Jelinek.
Bizarre story but so well written. Several of the passages have made me uncomfortable, not so much because of the topic but because of the richness of the writing.
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What is it that people enjoyed about The Old Man and the Sea?
I am curious as I just cannot get into Hemingway, yet he clearly resonates with a lot of people.
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Can't believe it's December.
I have just started reading The Old Man and the Sea by Ernest Hemingway. It's only 88 pages so shouldn't take me too long. I've decided to concentrate on shorter works for now.
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I have just started reading The Crying Lot of 49 with an aim to finish it (if possible).
I agree that his writing is.. odd. Which I don't mind, it's just that there doesn't seem to be a reason for it (or, the more plausible explanation, I'm just not getting it).
What makes Pynchon so famous?
Also, does anyone have any 'tips' to read his works? Reading some of his sentences makes me feel like I'm swimming in a pool of mushy peas.
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I watched two episodes last night and found it very disturbing.
I don't think I can watch several episodes back to back, as I need to time to think about them. Weird stuff. Yeah, I don't think it's a series you can binge watch (which I know is difficult with Netflix!). I always needed to take time to digest each episode before continuing with the next.
I found that some of the episodes had some meaningful lessons which made me think about my own life and how I interact with technology on a day to day basis.
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Hi Angury, you obviously have a deep interest in this whole subject and have read impressively...I hope you are not disappointed by the TV dramatisation of this interesting person. It is bound to be a bit of a snapshot and have a bit of an angle on his personality to suit the plot.
That is a good point (and I'm humbled that you recognise how passionate I am about this subject).
I agree that the movie is unlikely to be completely factually accurate and some creative license will be used, but I do hope that they manage to keep to the spirit of Laings legacy. At the least, I hope that this film brings Laing back into the spotlight and opens up a debate about how we treat the mentally unwell and the direction we are heading in. Laing is well-known for his eccentric and at times dangerous behaviour, but I just hope that this film will portray a different side - a man who saw mental illness as more than just a set of chemical imbalances, who went against the status quo of his profession and saw his patients through a holistic lens and (I believe) set the ball rolling for community mental health care.
But yes, you are right. It will to some extent be a dramatisation of his life (and there is a lot to dramatise), but if it really does go all topsy turvy at least I can sit back in the cinema and dream about Tennant instead.
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I feel the survivor movement in the USA and the various groups such as Soteria network in UK, are very important.
Sadly the more one looks deep into psychiatry, the more you realise pros for both traditional psychiatry and for critics of the system.
Criticism of psychiatry is at its best when talking of psychiatry's connections to the drug industry ie pharmaceutical companies.
Not very ethical at times.
Yet a consultant psychiatrist faced with a very distressed individual in a hospital. Can she offer her in depth counselling and then blame childhood trauma? Well first it's not quite attainable to get a person in that state to listen to anything.
Medication? Yes please, cry all professionals....and rightly so in such cases.
Such fascinating and complex ideas stem from one's readings in mental health.
Very interesting. I agree, it's such a grey area and ultimately I don't think we can ever find one 'answer' to these problems. Mental health problems differ for each and every person, and I think a good psychiatrist is one who is able to see each of her patients as individuals filled with loves, fears and joys of their own - lives that cannot be conveyed by a diagnosis and need to be understood rather than condensed.
I hear a Soteria House was opened in Bradford here in the UK, but I was unable to find much information about it's current status and whether it was still running - I was hoping to volunteer with them for a while.
However there is an organisation called the Critical Psychiatry Network in the UK which I follow:
http://www.criticalpsychiatry.co.uk/
It is made up of a group of British psychiatrists who are critical of certain uses of the current diagnostic system and the use of psychopharmacology in certain settings. They have released some very interesting papers and hold regular events throughout the UK.
While I don't necessarily agree with everything that the network says, I do think it is important to have this discussion. I think mental health problems change with time and culture, and it is up to each society to decide what we consider a problem, how we choose to treat it and how we choose to perceive those who suffer from such difficulties.
I am hoping that this upcoming film helps to highlight this issue and hopefully stimulates a discussion on what we can learn from psychiatry in the past (I do think there are lessons we can learn) and what we should aim for in the future.
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Great post Angury.
During my own research in this area of anti psychiatry, I read a lot of Laing about 25 years ago.
This Kingsley Hall was an experiment that ended up
being ridiculed by mainstream biological psychiatry due to the regression, baby feeding etc.
What are your thoughts on Laings writing? While I agree that his behaviour as a doctor was at times downright unprofessional, I found his book, The Divided Self to be rather enlightening. I find psychosis very interesting and I thought it was a different way of looking at the 'illness.'
Also, I'd love to hear more about your research into anti-psychiatry. What conclusion did you eventually reach - do you think it is a movement that is needed?
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Mad to be Normal is a biopic about R.D. Laing, a Scottish psychiatrist whose work had a significant impact on modern day Psychiatry and the anti-psychiatry movement.
One of his most controversial ideas was Kingsley Hall; a centre in East London in which people suffering from psychosis were able to come and go as they pleased with no medication or restraint. Instead, the centre contained activities such as meditation, all-night therapy and role-reversal sessions. The place was also famous for its use of LSD (which at the time was legal), which was supposed to 'release inner demons and buried childhood traumas.' At least two people jumped off the buildings roof while the centre was open, and the house was raided by a drug squad. Easy to say, it was all a rather chaotic experiment.
Possibly one of the most famous 'residents' was Mary Barnes, a woman who used to smear the walls with faeces, regressed to infancy for a time and fed from a bottle. She later became a famous artist and poet. There is more information about the residents there in this Guardian article:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/sep/02/rd-laing-mental-health-sanity
"At the time I was at Kingsley Hall, the view really was that, if you had schizophrenia, it was no good talking to you because you would never get any sense out of a schizophrenic – it's all nonsense that comes out of their mouths. And I pretty much subscribed to that view. Ronnie [Laing] said, "Go mad, young man", and I did. I took him at his word, and I went as mad as I possibly could, and at no time did he try and stop me.
This biopic, with David Tennant playing Laing, is set during this exceptional experiment and covers the life of one of the worlds most renowned and controversial psychiatrists.
Unfortunately no trailers have yet to be released, but a few photos have been released which show Tennant as Laing:
I am a big fan of Laing, his most famous work arguably being The Divided Self and I am thrilled that his work is being brought into the public light - although he was very well known in his own time, with his books reaching the best-seller lists.
I was wondering whether there were any other fans out there eagerly awaiting this film - or perhaps those who've never heard of him but are interested none the less!
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I'm interested to hear how fans feel about this news:
https://twitter.com/dragonmount/status/725790200006242305/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
Personally I'm thrilled that it has finally been confirmed. I'm also relieved that the series will be adapted into a TV series rather than a film which imo would never be able to capture both the depth and breadth of the magic that is The Wheel of Time.
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I just finished watched the Crash Course videos on this novel which have given me insight into its background and how the storyline represented the real world - particularly its links with the history of Columbia.
Would highly recommend watching the two, very short videos:
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I haven't read this work, but am really interested in delving more into the area of Humanistic Psychology. I feel it can teach us a lot in our modern world. I particularly like the quote in your signature.How about Abraham Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being, I have found that was excellent, great to read about self actualization.
I was wondering whether anyone had read Viktor Frankl's book Mans Search for Meaning? What an incredible insight into humanity. I was particularly struck by his final chapter around the ideas of 'Logotherapy.' Not something I'd heard of before I have to admit, but an idea that I find intriguing and believe could bring hope and meaning to a lot of people's lives.
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I used to feel the same until the start of September this year when I started using my iPad to read ebooks as I had to travel a lot. I've almost (almost!) been converted to the iPad now. I prefer its 'sleekness' to the typical kindle. I know that shouldn't make a difference - after all reading is reading - but for some reason it does. I also find it easier to use the kindle app on the iPad in terms of highlighting and making notes. As for the glare from the screen, I find the Night Shift mode on the iPad very easy on the eyes when reading.Which is why I never understand people using tablets to read books (its not what they were designed for). E-ink is a wonderful technology, I think. Although seemingly quite restricted to perhaps only 1 main use - reading at length.
Plus I just find it very convenient to have everything under one tablet.
You speak of people using tablets to read but what about using your phone...
People read books on their phone? I guess they're younger people with good eyesight...
Nollaig - while you can of course do that on a tablet, you are straining your eyes as much as if you were reading on a laptop or desktop computer.
Again, I've started reading on my phone while waiting around for appointments etc and have found it rather useful. Everything I read on my IPad in the kindle app is synced to my phone so I can jump between the two as required. It's just so handy.
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Have just finished Volume V of Prousts In Search of Lost Time. Will the start the final volume tomorrowand aim to finish the entire series by the end of the month. I feel so tired of reading his work now, yet I am so close to the end. Not to mention the beautiful gems that I continue to stumble upon while reading his writing.
But it is beginning to feel like a chore. Just.. one.. more.. book.
UK book trade sees strong Christmas sales
in Book News
Posted
Interesting. I wonder what has led to the increase.