Paul

I have finally finished re-reading the book. In its early stages I began to doubt my sanity for reading it again but finally, by the last page. I was back in love with it. In love? Well, at least in like. And I found additional deeply moving human interest episodes that I had glossed over the first time and forgotten about. One definitely has to read the entire book to the end, to the very last page, to appreciate it.

Gyre, Many thanks for the further thoughts. They'll help me find my way through the story with things to keep my eyes open for. Already it is clear that Holden has severe dislikes of his roommates for no really good reasons. The one of them is quite withdrawn and "always squeezing his pimples." The other one has an outward going life, spends a lot of time in front of the mirror to look good, and is always borrowing Holden's stuff. Well so? That is hardly reason for Holden to pick physical fights with the one of them or treat the other as a pariah. They rub him the wrong way, but life has all kinds. So I would say that not only is Holden nothing special, he is actually dysfunctional in some of his social ways. (But I'm only up to p52) So I guess the puzzle gets to be whether anything, or what, develops that might be good to say about him in the rest of the story. I'll be very interested to hear your reactions the second time around.

Gyre, No complaints whatever about your blunt remarks, or your assessment of Holden. But "always a classic" about "nothing special" still leaves me intrigued. I guess I just like off-beat topics, to figure out why. Part of trying to figure out why I liked it when so many dislike it.

Oops, sorry. Sounds like I got a little in front.

Kay, That's really feeding the fire! They both sound irresistible.

Excellent point! Could be. In addition to still being a slightly nutty unfocused cynical young man? "Sleep tight, ya morons!" as he leaves school for the last time. Priceless!

Ah Pontalba, Is Holden just like the people he complains about? That's something to try to wrap the old gray cells around -- as Holden might call them

YAY Renniemist! We'll be here!

I'll offer a random thought. The first page of the book has Holden telling us: It is pretty blurry exactly what "come out here" means, but it sounds as if he is in some sort of rehab center or truancy detention center, possibly even a mental institution for "this madman stuff." Against that background, one might read the opening narrative sentences of the book in a somewhat different light than simply telling a story. That first person narrative can now sound for all the world like an answer to a general get-acquainted-question "Tell me about yourself" that an admitting officer or a counselor or a psychologist/psychiatrist might ask a patient during an interview at such a center or hospital. (Guessing wildly from my not-so-vast reading on such subjects ). Which means that Holden is not necessarily addressing us as readers outside of the covers of the book, but rather may be addressing us as if we were a part of his story, sitting across a desk from him listening to him answer that question we asked. And that further means, that we ourselves might think of ourselves as looking at Holden -- not so much for whether the events of his life appeal to us, or are interesting (I think they are) -- but rather more as if actively engaged in trying to evaluate this cynical young man sitting in front of us, to see what we make of him as a person and what makes him tick. Do we believe him? Whether anything at all like that point-of-view was intended by Salinger is far from clear, but the possibility may not be accidental, given that he deliberately places the setting "out here" and mentions "madman" behavior. At any rate, it offers a way of looking at Holden as more than simply a character involved in a sequence of events in a novel. Whether such a perspective will hold up throughout the book will of course remain to be seen. But so far I'm cheering for Holden.

Liz, He is all that -- sensible, goofy and screwed up, all at the same time IMO -- yet I ended up liking him, and this reading of the book is going to be to try to figure out why I do. It's good to be not alone in a discussion.

Liz, That's the Holden I'm reading about, and you have him just right! Sounds like me and my friends from high-school, knocking about and goofing off, while trying to grow up at the same time (and faking even large parts of that!)

Pontalba, I think your first point has quite a bit to do with prevailing opinions about the book because, in general, this book about a high-school student really does seem to turn off high-school students. Although far from all, as we are seeing in this thread, it still puzzles me. Your second comment, about having a second look at it, is just great IMO! The more the merrier for the discussion! YAY. And, as it turns out, I am noticing things on my re-read, now, which passed clear over my head when I read it the first time. So, the re-read is definitely worth it. I'm now on p34 and it is clear that Holden's in-your-face and smart-alecky attitude is probably going to continue for another couple hundred pages. /groan/ On the other hand, there are some early indications that not all is lost and that the book can develop quite nicely and show Holden as an appealing character (almost despite himself, perhaps). More about that later. Hope your book arrives soon, instead of midnight.

/whoosh/ That was quick! (p1) If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you'll probably want to know is where I was born, and what my lousy chilldhood was like, and how my parents were occupied and all before they had me, and all that David Copperfield kind of crap, but I don't feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth. In the first place, that stuff bores me, and in the second place, my parents would have about two hemorhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them. . . . . I'm not going to tell you my whole goddam autobiography or anything. I'll just tell you about this madman stuff that happened to me about last Christmas just before I got pretty run down and had to come out here and take it easy. -"The Catcher in the Rye" - J.D. Salinger

Pontalba, it's short as I recall. Won't add much height at all. I'm off! /whoosh/

KiwiMellon, You are definitely not alone in your opinion! You have safety in numbers -- great numbers. Never doubt it! In fact, now I am curious to go back and read the book to see what I think of it and why. This could turn into a very lively discussion if we all shared our reasons! Gotta go get a copy.

It seems to be a book that brings an enormous number of posts in other forums from people who absolutely hated it. And it may yet do that here too. I read it a long time ago, however, and happened to like it very much. I especially liked the reverie that gives the book its title but, then again, I like sentimental stories and that one has always stayed with me. I would suggest that people at least read the book through to its very end before putting it away, even though I appreciate that advice must be very difficult for many to follow. Perhaps it all depends on the frame of mind you catch it in.

Pontalba, Wonderfully put! For me, Lolita was a different book every time I re-read it! Right on!

Muggle not, Yes you are. However, I've just been content to grasp what I can and enjoy that much. I find him enjoyable enough at that level.

I wonder too. I certainly hope nobody is feeling intimidated here. Let that stay over there by all means! And let's try to capture the friendliness over here on this side. So, why "intimidated?"

..................... Never doubted it for a minute!

Continuing pontalba's earlier thought, I would think that the story of Pnin was not intimidating -- a gentle, cuddly, teddy-bear of a man making his way through life among friends and not-so-much-friends. With Sebastian Knight being, in effect, Nabokov's gentler version of a detective story -- having a corpse but no killer, for example. I think I have to agree that, for a variety of reasons, they are both more approachable than Lolita, whose fame must at least rest in part upon its boldness.

Pontalba. I think that catches it perfectly! I think he is the most endearing of all VN's characters. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body, and life is not willing to share much good luck with him either. But, undeterred, he tackles life head-on with infallible good cheer, suffers along the way, and gains our hearts in the process.

Agree 100%.

Well, Andy, The results are in. In my opinion Oracle Night did go downhill, and you definitely were being generous.The initially interesting structure of a narrator-author writing a story about an editor reading a story, who also had a friend who was an author and perhaps writing a story, and the potentially interlocked story lines that might be implied by this structure of stories within stories, just all petered out into insignificant endings that finally didn't seem to me to be worth the effort of reading. There were several definitely very interesting episodes and events that occurred in the few days of the author's life that were covered by the overall story, but finally they just seemed to get lost in long stretches of boring historical narrative, to never again come together for dramatic impact within the overall story itself. The only way I can try to describe the overall effect on me is to say that Auster seemed to spend more time "explaining" his story, rather than simply "telling" it in an interesting manner. So, he moves further down in my stack.

SmartBomb, Thank you for a very kind and understanding response. As for this being a great forum, yes, indeed!