Downgrading women & sexism in fiction

[emelee]

I am not an extreme feminist, but geez, sometimes it's just too obvious.

 

I am listening to a Clive Cussler novel and the females are referred to by their first names and the guys are referred to by their last names, almost constantly.

"..., said Carina"
"..., said Zavala"
"..., said Baltazar"

Even with a married couple, the guy is referred to as Trout while the woman (whose last name is also Trout) is referred to as Gammay.

It is actually annoying me.

And as always, the man has to rescue the woman. Like 100 times within the novel.

 

 

Has this issue bothered you in fiction? Do you have examples? Any specific authors you'd like to name? 
Or have you never or seldom noticed sexism in fiction?

 

 

[woolf woolf]

I'm well aware of the pending sexism in society to the point in which even girls have said I'm overreacting. That one about the man saving the woman depends a lot on character construct and narrative, just the fact alone isn't sufficient to label. About the names, you could see it the other way: the author's being sexist by aknowledging the female characters as likable personas and addressing male characters in an antipathic manner. However, you're the one reading it and surely there are more discreet examples of sexism that you can't specifically portray in a forum post. I remember reading "Women" by Bukowski and the guy seemed sexist, but I don't remember the specifics. James Bond in "Casino Royale" was sexist, but I'm sure plenty of men read it like he was inspiring. Usually, the older books (before 20th century) could be considered sexist, but they should be considered by their time.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Sousa

[emelee]

I'm well aware of the pending sexism in society to the point in which even girls have said I'm overreacting. That one about the man saving the woman depends a lot on character construct and narrative, just the fact alone isn't sufficient to label. About the names, you could see it the other way: the author's being sexist by aknowledging the female characters as likable personas and addressing male characters in an antipathic manner. However, you're the one reading it and surely there are more discreet examples of sexism that you can't specifically portray in a forum post. I remember reading "Women" by Bukowski and the guy seemed sexist, but I don't remember the specifics. James Bond in "Casino Royale" was sexist, but I'm sure plenty of men read it like he was inspiring. Usually, the older books (before 20th century) could be considered sexist, but they should be considered by their time.

 

James Bond has IMO always been sexist. And now I am talking about the movies. I haven't read the books. But the movies are highly sexist. At least the first 20. It has gotten better with the modern Bond movies. 

[ian]

I gave up on Clive Cussler quite some time ago; not because of the sexism admittedly, but because they are poorly written and have unbelievable plots.

I have to agree with Sousa  - I find it disrespectful to call people just by their surname - it's the kind of thing done to servants.

 

It would be something that would bother me in a book, unless it was an older book in which case you have to make allowances for it being " of it's time", or of course if the sexism (or racism or anything-ism) is part of a characters make up and part of a plot device.  (many of the characters in "The girl with the Dragon Tattoo" for instance)

 

Fortunately, there are enough good writers out there that we don't need to read those that do this.

Edited April 30, 2015 by ian

[Athena]

It bothers me when books are sexist, or movies or video games for that matter. I have noticed this issue, but in fiction I'd have to think hard of a specific book, because I try to banish offensive content from my mind (and if I think a book will be very offensive, I won't read it). I'm pretty sure I have read books where women weren't treated right, or were they weren't well developed characters but just 'damsels in distress' or where they were just seen as sex objects.

 

It is very obvious though in many video games. I would recommend the videos of Feminist Frequency for anyone who wants to know more about sexism in video games.

[woolf woolf]

It bothers me when books are sexist, or movies or video games for that matter. I have noticed this issue, but in fiction I'd have to think hard of a specific book, because I try to banish offensive content from my mind (and if I think a book will be very offensive, I won't read it). I'm pretty sure I have read books where women weren't treated right, or were they weren't well developed characters but just 'damsels in distress' or where they were just seen as sex objects.

 

It is very obvious though in many video games. I would recommend the videos of Feminist Frequency for anyone who wants to know more about sexism in video games.

 

About video games, I agree there is plenty of sexism. Not just in-game, but the community is very agressive towards women and in gaming events there usually are plenty of women in lesser garments, for show. I have a small collection of videogames I saved, I sold the rest. Your post made me look to it and find out which games are sexist, and to my surprise I consider none of them as such. However, if you consider the damsel in distress trope as sexist, which I do not because video game characters aren't complex to begin with and the theme is only there as an excuse, practically half of them gain a bad status. If anyone wants a list of my games, I can give it, and highlight the "damsel in distress" ones. Also, when someone is being injusticed, he/she becomes more sensible to things that likely weren't there purposedly against him/her. Bear in mind I'm a white european male, therefore I'm part of the most privileged group in the world and as such I probably am not capable of fully understanding fully the prejudices aimed towards others.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Sousa

[Kell]

It has always bothered me. In fact, it bothers me so much that I have been known to alter fairytales when I tell them to my kids. I once came up with a story about a Particularly Practical Princess who gets on with the rescuing all by herself. I've been toying with rewriting it.

[vodkafan]

There is something interesting called the Bechdel Test which is applied to books and films as a measure of how sexist it is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

[vodkafan]

It has always bothered me. In fact, it bothers me so much that I have been known to alter fairytales when I tell them to my kids. I once came up with a story about a Particularly Practical Princess who gets on with the rescuing all by herself. I've been toying with rewriting it.

 

Wow Kell yeah do it.! 

[frankie]

There is something interesting called the Bechdel Test which is applied to books and films as a measure of how sexist it is.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

 

Wow, that's interesting, thanks for the link! I've never heard of that, shall look into it... 

[emelee]

I gave up on Clive Cussler quite some time ago; not because of the sexism admittedly, but because they are poorly written and have unbelievable plots.

 

 

Giving up on him too after The Navigator. It ended up feeling like a copy of Dan Brown's The da Vinci code. I hate feeling like I'm reading copies. 

Put that together with the sexism I felt was apparent, it's a no-brainer that he's not an author for me.

[pontalba]

In a couple's situation, referring to the man by the last name seems to be pretty common.  If the author referred to the woman by the same last name, it'd be pretty confusing, yeah?    Possibly the author meant it in that vein, and not in a sexist manner.  Now, I have not read any of Cussler's books, true.  However afaik, they are adventure/macho/spy books.  So, frankly, I'd expect them to be slanted toward a male audience resulting in what many women would consider macho/sexist/chest pounding behavior. 

 

As far as the Bond books, I've read them all, mostly back in the 60's and 70's, rereading several last year.  Believe me, there isn't a tenth as much sex in the books as in the films.    And, heck, they were written in the 50's and 60's so we have to consider the time they were written in as well.

 

As far as men rescuing women,     I agree it's irritating and can be offensive but we are not all Laura Croft and just might need someone that outweighs us by 100 pounds and has martial arts skills to rescue us.  I would at least, Lara Croft, I am not! 

 

Now, if you really want to be annoyed, infuriated and generally mad as hell......watch some of the episodes of Mad Men.  The way women were treated is appalling, to say the least.  And believe me......those renditions are accurate.  I lived it, I know.  We've come a long way, baby.

 

Added in Edit:  Besides, it's too exhausting to take offense at every little thing some dumb male does.  Pick your battles.  It's more effective.

Edited May 12, 2015 by pontalba

[emelee]

In a couple's situation, referring to the man by the last name seems to be pretty common.  If the author referred to the woman by the same last name, it'd be pretty confusing, yeah?    Possibly the author meant it in that vein, and not in a sexist manner.  Now, I have not read any of Cussler's books, true.  However afaik, they are adventure/macho/spy books.  So, frankly, I'd expect them to be slanted toward a male audience resulting in what many women would consider macho/sexist/chest pounding behavior. 

 

 

The husband's name is PAUL Trout and the wife Gammay Trout. So we perfectly know his first name. Still, he's mostly referred to as Trout, and she as Gammay. 

 

 

Now, if you really want to be annoyed, infuriated and generally mad as hell......watch some of the episodes of Mad Men.  The way women were treated is appalling, to say the least.  And believe me......those renditions are accurate.  I lived it, I know.  We've come a long way, baby.

 

I love Mad Men. Sure, it's very sexist. But it takes place in the 60s in central New York. Women back then were usually secretaries and expected to keep quiet, smile and dress impecably. Preferably also be sexy for the men to look at. Watching Mad Men doesn't annoy me. It was the way it was back then. I don't even get annoyed by it. And the show is absolutely gorgeous.

 

But a novel written in 2007 and is played out during the same time period has NO excuse. Especially since the characters are not sexist. They are written as really decent good guys. 

 

Just like a man grabbing a woman's butt as a "joke" today has no excuse. 

 

I read crime novels every now and then, but this is the first time that it's actually bothered me. 

[pontalba]

The husband's name is PAUL Trout and the wife Gammay Trout. So we perfectly know his first name. Still, he's mostly referred to as Trout, and she as Gammay. 

 

 

I love Mad Men. Sure, it's very sexist. But it takes place in the 60s in central New York. Women back then were usually secretaries and expected to keep quiet, smile and dress impecably. Preferably also be sexy for the men to look at. Watching Mad Men doesn't annoy me. It was the way it was back then. I don't even get annoyed by it. And the show is absolutely gorgeous.

 

But a novel written in 2007 and is played out during the same time period has NO excuse. Especially since the characters are not sexist. They are written as really decent good guys. 

 

Just like a man grabbing a woman's butt as a "joke" today has no excuse. 

 

I read crime novels every now and then, but this is the first time that it's actually bothered me. 

 

Yes, I did read your first post and realize the names of both parties.  My point was that it is not uncommon for friends/colleagues to refer to the male portion of a couple by their last name, and the female portion by their first name.

It isn't necessarily sexist in nature.  In fact, many women I've known throughout my school and working life have referred to each other by their last names.....both men and women.

 

I love the series, Man Men as well.  My point was this........although that treatment of women was as you say "expected", it was not right.  It was condescending, sexist to the core, and it totally diminished a female's role in the office, work place and at home.  The consequences were that women were kept in menial roles.   

And, it's still there, more subtle only because of some of the legal consequences that have been hard won by women.  We may have come a long way, but we ain't there yet.

 

All that said, some women are just as guilty of perpetuating the problems.  Honestly, if one more waitress calls me "honey" or "sweetie" I'm liable to start screaming. 

[emelee]

Yes, I did read your first post and realize the names of both parties.  My point was that it is not uncommon for friends/colleagues to refer to the male portion of a couple by their last name, and the female portion by their first name.

It isn't necessarily sexist in nature.  In fact, many women I've known throughout my school and working life have referred to each other by their last names.....both men and women.

 

I love the series, Man Men as well.  My point was this........although that treatment of women was as you say "expected", it was not right.  It was condescending, sexist to the core, and it totally diminished a female's role in the office, work place and at home.  The consequences were that women were kept in menial roles.   

And, it's still there, more subtle only because of some of the legal consequences that have been hard won by women.  We may have come a long way, but we ain't there yet.

 

All that said, some women are just as guilty of perpetuating the problems.  Honestly, if one more waitress calls me "honey" or "sweetie" I'm liable to start screaming. 

 

The novel I mentioned is written in 3rd person. And even during the parts that are not dialogue, the author, Clive Cussler, did this. And that's the part that annoyed me. If 2 men call each other by their last names, I don't care. It's their thing. But for an author to do it is another thing, IMO. The invisible 3rd person doesn't need to be sexist. If the book had been written in 1st person and he/she had told the story with his/her nicknames for people, I don't think I would have reacted. 

 

I don't know, but it sure did annoy me. And I have never before gotten this annoyed. I am a general feminist, but I am not a strict one who shouts at every little error in gender issues. That's why it surprised me that I got so annoyed. Because, as I said, with Mad Men - I don't even blink twice. 

 

*break for a quick Google search*

 

I googled to see what others have had to say about the author. Seems a lot of people have reacted:

 

"It's bad enough that Clive Cussler appears to be both racist and wildly sexist based......."

"A totally nonsense, aimless story, even for me the blatant sexism........"

"Bad Editing, Writing and Outright Sexism"

"the incredible sexism of the original Dirk Pitt books a bit wearing"

"Poorly written, asinine, sexist drivel"

"Plus there are the archaic gender roles and casual sexism"

"Through the years, I've tolerated Cussler's blatant sexism, juvenile writing style........"

"he is a sexist 'person of dubious parentage' of an author in general"

"characters are stereotypical and sexist, and the dialogue is wooden"

"Some readers may be put off by the apparent sexism........"

"The series still maintains Cussler's sexism......."

"Cussler is still a touch sexist"

[pontalba]

Oy!  Cussler sounds pretty nasty!  I like action stories, but he just sounds like "macho bulls**t.    There is enough of that in the world, don't need to read it too. heh

 

When I mentioned Mad Men, I didn't mean I don't like the series, or that it consistently angered me.  I love the series, and I can only think of a few instances that really made me go arrrrrrrrr!  Remember the bit when Joan and Peggy made a presentation and the guy was simply one of the biggest turds on the planet.  On the way down in the elevator Joan said to Peggy something like ......."I could just burn the building down".  The line was delivered perfectly. Just perfectly! 

[vodkafan]

The novel I mentioned is written in 3rd person. And even during the parts that are not dialogue, the author, Clive Cussler, did this. And that's the part that annoyed me. If 2 men call each other by their last names, I don't care. It's their thing. But for an author to do it is another thing, IMO. The invisible 3rd person doesn't need to be sexist. If the book had been written in 1st person and he/she had told the story with his/her nicknames for people, I don't think I would have reacted. 

 

I don't know, but it sure did annoy me. And I have never before gotten this annoyed. I am a general feminist, but I am not a strict one who shouts at every little error in gender issues. That's why it surprised me that I got so annoyed. Because, as I said, with Mad Men - I don't even blink twice. 

 

*break for a quick Google search*

 

I googled to see what others have had to say about the author. Seems a lot of people have reacted:

 

"It's bad enough that Clive Cussler appears to be both racist and wildly sexist based......."

"A totally nonsense, aimless story, even for me the blatant sexism........"

"Bad Editing, Writing and Outright Sexism"

"the incredible sexism of the original Dirk Pitt books a bit wearing"

"Poorly written, asinine, sexist drivel"

"Plus there are the archaic gender roles and casual sexism"

"Through the years, I've tolerated Cussler's blatant sexism, juvenile writing style........"

"he is a sexist 'person of dubious parentage' of an author in general"

"characters are stereotypical and sexist, and the dialogue is wooden"

"Some readers may be put off by the apparent sexism........"

"The series still maintains Cussler's sexism......."

"Cussler is still a touch sexist"

  There's no smoke without fire