The Bookseller of Kabul by Asne Seierstad

[Kell]

February's reading circle choice is The Bookseller of Kabul by Asne Seierstad:

Two weeks after September 11th, award-winning journalist Asne Seierstad went to Afghanistan to report on the conflict. In the following spring she returned to live with a bookseller and his family for several months. The Bookseller of Kabul is the fascinating account of her time spent living with the family of thirteen in their four-roomed home. Bookseller Sultan Khan defied the authorities for twenty years to supply books to the people of Kabul. He was arrested, interrogated and imprisoned by the communists and watched illiterate Taliban soldiers burn piles of his books in the street. He even resorted to hiding most of his stock in attics all over Kabul. But while Khan is passionate in his love of books and hatred of censorship, he is also a committed Muslim with strict views on family life. As an outsider, Seierstad is able to move between the private world of the women - including Khan's two wives - and the more public lives of the men. The result is an intimate and fascinating portrait of a family which also offers a unique perspective on a troubled country.

[Kell]

I'm not sure what I was expecting, but this is a complete surprise even just a few chapters in. Not that I'm complaining, as so far I'm enjoying it. The double standards are dispicable - if an adulterous couple is caught and only one punished (for whatever reason), it is the woman more often than not, and the punishment is most often death; girls are not allowed to smile at or talk to boys, not even to look at them, never mind be alone with them, for fear of them being "spoiled goods" and being beaten to within an inch of their lives; having to be covered from head to foot in all but the most permissive of households - even though I knew all this before I started reading, I find it completely shocking. Another aspect with which I have trouble dealing, is a society where books,art & priceless historical artifacts of the Afghan heritage are willfully destroyed because of religious beliefs - it's utterly tragic.

[Kell]

The rituals observed, both in daily life and on special ocasions, are absolutely fascinating, as is the fact that any woman woud actively choose to wear a burkah over "normal" clothing that would be cooler to wear and allow more freedom of movement. The chapters I've read today have focussed more on the women in the Khan family and even though Afghan women lead far more sheltered lives, they have the same hopes and desires are any other women around the world - it's heartbreaking that they would be so harshly punished for acting on them. The family dynamics and the heirarchies are very interesting too...

Has anyone else started this one ahead of time?

[Pilgrim]

Not yet. Mine's at the bookstore waiting for me.

I just finished a book that involved Egypt during the reign of Queen Victoria and it got me interested in the Middle East - an Anne Perry mystery called Seven Dials and it painted an interesting picture.

After your choice, I'll probably read Jimmy Carter's new book and then there are a few mysteries by Elizabeth Peters (an Egyptologist) that were nominees for one award or another - then, again, some other author may call out and pull me back to crime USA - and another plan will fail.

[Freewheeling Andy]

I started on it yesterday, Kell, then finished A Traveller's Life. About to get more stuck in. The style isn't exactly what I was expecting, but I really need to read more to get a stronger opinion.

[Kell]

I know what you mean about the stye, Andy - I'm not sure what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. That's not to say I'm not enjoying it, because I am. I still find it odd to read present tense, but it seems to work here, and getting multiple perspectives is interesting, as we're getting to see how things work on every level of the family heirarchy.

[Pilgrim]

I picked it up after work so I've barely started - thru chapter one - but during lunch I was searching the internet and discovered an interesting linguists' site called "TranslatorsCafe" that discusses the book.

http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=4644&messageid=59452#59452 (http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/MegaBBS/thread-view.asp?threadid=4644&messageid=59452#59452)

And it appears that he is or was suing Seierstad:

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1373324.ece

and has written a book called "Once Upon a Time There Was a Bookseller of Kabul"

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1456494.ece (http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1456494.ece)

[Kell]

That's really interesting, Pilgrim - thanks for that. It might be interesting to see his point of view as, right enough, Bookseller isn't really a very flattering book, neither of his family or his countrymen. Then again, with Afghan cultural attitudes the way they are, I think it would ave been very difficult to portray them any more sympathetically than was done. I find myself both pitying & diliking some of the family members (such as Mansul - he wants to do his own theng, but he's incredibly lazy with it) & reading about how the women are treated over there is incredibly uncomfortable & makes me feel very lucky to live where I do!

[Pilgrim]

I agree. As one of the translators says, she doesn't doubt the truth of the book only the way that his hospitality was dealt with. If I were the host and a learned, progressive man, I'd probably have been on best behavior (by quite progressive standards) knowing a book was coming out of it. From chapter one alone with the courting, the actions would be viewed by much of the world in a bad light.

[Kell]

Then again, seeing as this is how they have been brought up & they strongly believe that this is the right way to live, that probably was their best behaviour - treating women like slaves is a way of life over there, beating someone who has comitted any sin is "the correct punishment". That's never going to be seen in a positive light by Western society, but they would probably be completely shocked by our best behaviour - fromthe clothes we wear to the fact that women openly hold jobs, are seen as equal to men & can do as they please without having to wait for the permission of the men in their lives, so that a book written by an Afghan about staying with a Western family would probably seem to show us in a bad light to Afghan readers, whereas we wouldn't understand what all the fuss was about.

[Renniemist]

I am glad you are enjoying The Bookseller of Kabul. Your reactions are very similar to mine when I read it last year. I think you are right about the cultural differences. However I would recommend reading My Forbidden Face by Latifa. It is an interesting non-fiction book written by a young Afghan girl at the time of the Taliban.

[Icecream]

treating women like slaves is a way of life over there, beating someone who has comitted any sin is "the correct punishment". That's never going to be seen in a positive light by Western society,

I wouldn't be so sure about that.. There are plenty of people around who seem to think women are there to serve men, and should do as they are told.

[Kell]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.. There are plenty of people around who seem to think women are there to serve men, and should do as they are told.That's true, but Western society is generally perceived to be more equal (& getting moreso) & permissive than many of the eastern European & middle-eastern countries, is what I meant.

[Pilgrim]

Very true, Kell. It could take a bit for me to see the things that would turn them off about our culture. I'd kind of like to read his book so that I could try to put the pieces together but then I haven't even read this side of the story...so ta ta for now.

[Kell]

There's a quote that particularly stood out for me:

Sultan said: If the families don't have rules, how can we form a society that respects rules and laws, and not just guns and rockets?This is a society in chaos, it is a lawless society, right out of a civil war.If the families are not guided by authority, we can expect an even worse chaos to follow.

Although I am still appalled at the way Sultan treats his family - like a tyrant, rather than a father, brother or son - I can't help feeling there is a grani of truth in what he says here. Children today seem to act in ways I would never have dreamed of acting when I was a child, with a complete lack of respect for others, especially those in positions of authority. Many are simply not taught that there are boundaries that should not be breached and that there is behaviour that is unacceptable in society. However, I think that cltures such as the one portrayed in this book have gone too far the other way, allowing no freedom at all & giving punishment that far outstrips many of the perceived. I'm not sure this teaches respect, more that it teaches fear & engenders an air of simmering resentment that will be taken out on future generations - an ever-perpetuating circle.

[Icecream]

I think that perceptions are perhaps just a front in both cases Kell, and there is certainly a lot wrong with the west that is just as shocking, although I take your point.

Your last post too is interesting. I am going to get hold of this book. The question is have this country gone too far? Also you have brought up the question of what system does/can gain such respect. With so many different types of people in society, it seems a difficult thing to do.

I can see that this system would actually work for some people. For example, there are ways of getting respect, I have seen and been shocked by but they have worked, although I know they would not work for a different type of person.

[Betty27]

Hi, this is my first ever post here as I joined just two weeks ago so I could vote for and join the 'The Bookseller of Kabul' Reading Circle. So firstly a very friendly Hello and thank you!

So far I've read until around p.100 and just like you I have been very shocked by the life of the different women in this and other families. I say was shocked, but of course not surprised by the way women are treated and regarded, as one hears a lot about that nowadays. What I found most interesting and truly shocking is how most women don't even seem to consider themselves treated badly. They seem to think themselves less worthy than men and just accept it. Difficult to understand for a young European woman like me at first. Thinking about the culture and knowing that for most of them this is the only way of life and treatment they've ever experienced made me understand the women a little better. And of course it is not easy to rebell against your own family and religion.

Regarding the real book sellers complaints, I think that mainly he feels his pride hurt by the criticism and fears for his repudation which is at stake, especially as he considers himself progressive and modern (I got that from one of your links, thank you Pilgrim!). Asne Seierstad may have not made it absolutely clear what she was planning to write about and in spite of her using different names, the bookseller and his family are easily identifiable, I assume. He accuses her of telling lies, but I cannot believe that she really did that, even though I admit that she wrote what she saw and in my opinion no observation is truly objective. I remember being surprised that the real bookseller let Asne Seierstad write this book; that was before I read your comments and links. Then my first thought was still 'What did he expect?' especially as the real bookseller Shah Mohammad Rais was a business man and must have read so many books in his life and should therefore know how different observations and views can lead to very different stories. I don't imagine him to be naive. He knew that she was writing about them what did she expect her to write. Probably he just didn't expect that a woman would dare write about a man and his family in a way that pictures the male members of the family in such a negative light. After all none of the women would have dared say to him some of the things they said to Asne Seierstad.

I have more to say but will stop this first post now as it is getting a bit long. Also just discovered your last posts and would like to reply to those too.

[Kell]

First off, welcome to the forum, Betty - it's lovely to have you here.

You make some very good points there about the women not necessarily thinking they're so badly treated as it's what they are used to. That, to me, makes teir situation all the sadder. To think that I have been brought up in a country that allows me to make my own choices - to live how I want to, to work if I want to, to marry who I love (if I want to) and to be friends with who I want, irrespective of their sex or social position, is a stark contrast to eh lives of these women. I'm sure they'd hate to think that we pity them, but that's what I do feel - pity that thay aren't given the choices we are and that they know no different & don't feel they can make the difference.

[Betty27]

I can't help feeling there is a grani of truth in what he says here.

I very much agree with you. Some children don't even realise that it is wrong to say something disrespectful to an adult or some with authority. I think some don't even know what respect is.

Even though I agree with what Sultan says in your quote, I do not agree with his form of authority and rules. There is disrespect in his family too, the lack of respect of women's real needs and wishes.

[Betty27]

Thanks a lot for your welcome, Kell!


I'm sure they'd hate to think that we pity them, but that's what I do feel

I know exactly what you mean, I pity them and consider their way of life 'wrong' and miserable. Whenever I read a book like this or when something has happened and the topic of women in Islam is being discussed in the news again, I would like to hear what the 'normal' Muslim women themselves think about it.

[Betty27]

This chapter describes Shakila and her sisters shopping for her wedding. At the beginning they are only described as burkas and, as in the title, as moving shapes. The burkas walk around the bazaar, part of a crowd of hundreds of burkas. Only when lifting their veil Seierstad uses the names of the tree women to describe what they are doing. As soon as they are fully covered again, they are the this burka or that burka.

The only way they can otherwise be kept apart is by looking at their shoes. Shakila is wearing black shoes, Mariam is wearing brown plastic sandals and Leila is wearing pink plastic shoes, whether intended or not these could be interpreted as personality representations. Other burkas are described, nearly all women wear high heeled shoes, and a few show their painted toe nails. This rebellion against the strict rules are described as one of the few ways of freedom and one of the few opportunitities to display individuality and personality.

Wearing the burka sounds incredibly restricting and the fact that every woman is just a shape in the crowd seems very disrespectful of everybody's individuality, but that goes off towards the old topic of woman in Muslim society. Here I just want to say how much I liked the way Seierstad described the sister in this chapter, and how not-naming the sisters when in burka highlights the fact that a woman in a burka seems to not be a person, whilst pointing out the few bits that do give them personality. The three chapter words, billowing, flattering, winding are also wonderful vivid descriptions. What I was wondering whether the three words describe all burkas, or whether each word is meant to describe one sister. Would love to hear some opinions on that when everyone has read it.

[Kell]

What an excellent insight, Betty. I did notice the fact that when they were wearing the burkahs they had no names mentioned, but I never thought about the possibility of the three words representing the three sisters, but I think you may be right. Personally, I would perhaps associates the word "fluttering" with Shakila, as she was slightly flirtatious in the shop while looking for her veil, and also because it conjours up images of a "blushing bride" fluttering her eyelashes.

[Pilgrim]

Well, I've only plodded somewhat into chapter 3 but found one point that was very interesting. When the Russians were attempting to start collective farms on lands procured from the wealthy, the people didn't want to farm the land because it was stolen - I don't know if that's fear of God or a strong cultural principle but it was interesting.

Hi Betty and welcome!

[Kell]

When the Russians were attempting to start collective farms on lands procured from the wealthy, the people didn't want to farm the land because it was stolen - I don't know if that's fear of God or a strong cultural principle but it was interesting.Yes - I found that odd. I can understand that they'd want to stick to their principles, but if it's a choice between farming stolen land or starving, I know which I'd choose!

[Betty27]

Thanks for your welcome, too, Pilgrim.

Odd, true and I probably wouldn't have such strong principles, but somehow admirable. I'd say it was mainly the fear of god.

[Pilgrim]

I've passed the Crime and Punishment and Suicide and Song chapters and it's disturbing though having read about drug barons recently in The Power of the Dog, I was braced. The fact is, it was similar for different reasons - both moved contraband and became obsessed with a young girl - the standard for women vs men is a sore point for me too, Kell.

[Betty27]

- the standard for women vs men is a sore point for me too, Kell.

And me! It makes me really angry actually. But I think you can guess that by now.

A slightly different point, when I read the chapter 'Suicide and Song' I was very saddened by the hopelessness in those poems. When I think of love poems which are about not being able to be with the one you love, they are typically characterised by the hope to be reunited at some point in the future, if only in death.

What I found interesting as well, was how openly against their husband the women in the poems are. I realise that they weren't intended for publication, but I would have thought that most women would be scared to say or sing the poems at all, in case someone would hear and tell their husband. A lot of the poems mentioned in the book were not just about their longing for the lover, but also their hatred for the husband.

[Pilgrim]

Betty, sorry I haven't responded to you, I'm moving slowly from the first page of this thread, except for responses, and up to chapter eight - thanks for noting it because it gives me a benchmark and I agree about the poems being a sad commentary on their situation. In fact, in discussing people turning people in...did I miss something or wasn't it Sharifa's daughter who passed on the love notes then snitched on Saliqa who was crying and beaten when the women were chatting in another room? I don't know the whole situation - just enough to be indignant.

[Betty27]

No need to apologise! Commenting on Ch 8 on the 3rd of the month was a bit early, so I thought I'd go back to an earlier chapter as I assume that I'm a bit ahead of most people as I actually started reading in January.

Yes, it was Sharifa's daughter Shabnam. Not impressed by her either; even though she's only mentioned twice I can imagine what kind of person she is. I got the impression that she likes getting everybody's attention which she doubtlessly did when telling on the couple.

[Freewheeling Andy]

Well, I think I'm still a way behind many of you, because I've been being lazy over recent days and not reading enough. 12 hours on a plane, plus more in airports and public transport, tomorrow, should sort me out.

Anyway, there's a couple of things on the down-trodden women I want to bring up. First, there's the writing style. There's something a bit clunky that I'm finding in a couple of places. There's commentary from Seierstad that's not really needed. She wants to say how utterly degrading and horrible the burqa (or some of the other treatment) is - and she's right. But she says it explicitly from time to time, and I think that's unnecessary.

The plain descriptions of what's going on tell you everything you need to know.

The second thing is that it's very easy to pass judgement on Sultan for his treatment of his women, but in comparison to what is normal in Afghanistan and has been for well over a decade, he's actually taking a fairly large leap in how liberal he is, how accomodating, and so on. He's a long, long way from perfect, but if you think about how he's acting in comparison to what is normal around him, I think he comes out as actually relatively progressive. (So far, about 8 chapters in).

[Betty27]

He's a long, long way from perfect, but if you think about how he's acting in comparison to what is normal around him, I think he comes out as actually relatively progressive. (So far, about 8 chapters in).

I know what you mean, and can't really disagree, but what I don't like about Sultan is his arbirtrary and highhanded way of deciding what his family members are allowed to or must do, in many cases disregarding their wishes.

Furthermore, in chapter 'The carpenter' he seems very tough and callous. Some might say he was justified, but considering the circumstances, I'm of the opinion that he was simply unkind and mean. Those who have read this far, will understand what I mean.

[Freewheeling Andy]

I finished this a couple of days ago. I enjoyed it, as a book, but it didn't really give me what I was expecting, or even wanting. I think I wanted more about the bookselling side, about the difficulties or otherwise of getting published, I wanted more of the Pakistan printworks and failed contracts with the Americans. I wasn't really expecting so much focus on family politics.

I still maintain that Sultan's not as bad as he at first appears, because of the context of his environment. I even think his heavy/high handed arbitrariness is generally in the context of wanting his family (and everyone else) to work hard to create the future rather than to rely on god and religion and help from outside; it's also about taking responsibility for your own problems rather than blaming them all on the Taleban or Soviets or Americans or whoever.

Clearly, he's mistaken in a large number of things, particularly (to my mind) how he restricts education of some of the children because he wants them to work.

I did feel that the whole book carried on with that clunkiness, too, in the writing; where Seierstad was trying to push the moral tone too hard in her "editorial" comments, when the content pushed the moral tone hard enough.

[Sugar]

Well, I did read it about a month ago. Enjoyed it and learned a lot from (for a start where Afghanistan actually is!).

I didn't like the lack of a character for Asne though. She was clearly there, and spoke with Sultan and his family, and I would have liked some anecdotes about the families reaction to her presence and outside the family reaction.

Where it read like a novel, I found it quite hard to remember I was reading something based in fact. I think it might have been marketed better in the way of a "historical novel" only with cultural differences rather than time ones!

It was an interesting read though - and I'm so pleased to have taken the time to finally read it. So thank you for influencing me even when I don't visit very often!

[maclsj]

I've just read this book this week (did a review here (http://suggestionsforabookworm.blogspot.com/2007/08/bookseller-of-kabul-by-asne-seierstad.html) so don't want to repeat myself too much!) and have to say I really enjoyed it. It was very different from the other book I've read about Afghanistan, 'The Kabul Beauty School' by Deborah Rodriguez, but just as good. It's really interesting to compare the two books so if anyone fancies a challenge, try doing that :)

[Icecream]

I didn't like the lack of a character for Asne though. She was clearly there, and spoke with Sultan and his family, and I would have liked some anecdotes about the families reaction to her presence and outside the family reaction.

I thought that too, but it would have taken away from the culture description of the book.

I liked this book. It is a good cultural story as we can see by the comments on this threads about how cultures work. Like any culture this one has its good and bad points. I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with a male head of family, or women having respect for their husbands, but there is a middle ground where the man is still the head, but the woman is not completely subject to him. There is definitely someting wrong with hiding women. Women should respect themselves and their families, but to be invisible is not always necessary, and is degrading. there is also something wrong with the total lack of freedom the children have, although some things i agree with.

I agree that Mansul is very lazy. Leila's character is to me a very good portrayal of what women should be. She does her tasks without complaint, is respectful and never the opposite. She finds time for a little freedom but is always there for her family. She may not find love or be married, but maybe one day she will. She does not really care for it, but it should be allowed to happen.