Reading Lolita in Tehran

[frankie]

It is assumed that you have read the book before reading posts in this thread, as the discussion might give away crucial points, and the continuous use of spoiler tags might hinder fluent reading of posts.

 

Reading Lolita in Tehran by Azar Nafisi

Synopsis (from Goodreads):

Every Thursday morning for two years in the Islamic Republic of Iran, a bold and inspired teacher named Azar Nafisi secretly gathered seven of her most committed female students to read forbidden Western classics. As Islamic morality squads staged arbitrary raids in Tehran, fundamentalists seized hold of the universities, and a blind censor stifled artistic expression, the girls in Azar Nafisi's living room risked removing their veils and immersed themselves in the worlds of Jane Austen, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Henry James, and Vladimir Nabokov. In this extraordinary memoir, their stories become intertwined with the ones they are reading.

 

Some basic questions to discuss, courtesy of BCF:

1. Eventhough this was not a fictional novel, how did you like the set of people featured in the book and their portrayals? Did you have any favorites?

2. What were your expectations for the book before you started reading it, and were they met by the book?

3. What do you think of Nafisi's style of writing, how she constructed the book and what she had to say?

4. Was this the first book you've read in this genre/by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? In addition, did the book make you want to learn and read more about the Islamic culture?

5. Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

6. Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

Questions that have come up during the discussion:

7. Discuss different attitudes toward the veil in Iran (Mashid - who wore it from choice, but disliked its political enforcement; Nafisi - refusing to teach if she had to wear it; those who thought there were bigger battles to fight). What do you think? Which side do you take?

8. Have you read any of the books that were discussed in RLiT? Which ones? Did you share any opinions with Nafisi and the others, and/or did Nafisi and the rest make you think of the book(s) in a different light? And which books did you add to your wishlist?

---

9. On page 100 of my copy, Manna says, sarcastically, that Nima is of the opinion that women don't understand how difficult it is also for the men to live in Iran, that they don't know how they should act, either. That they sometimes act like macho tyrants, because they feel vulnerable. And on page 220 Nafisi talks about how she started resenting her husband's happiness and peace, because even he didn't seem to understand what Nafisi had to put up with, as a woman and an academic. So my thoughts are, as the men seem to hold the power, should the 'common' man take a more active role in objecting the government and the laws? And is there a way for them to do this, as the government seems so rigid and set in their ways? Do you agree with Nafisi, that it was easy for the men to overlook the struggles of the women because they themselves were 'safe'?

---

10. Did you learn anything from this book? And when reading, how much do you read for the entertainment or escape value, and how much is your reading based on your wish to learn things from books?

11. Relating to previous question: Since this was a memoir, based on facts and true events and lives: Do you think there is a difference for you, in reading memoirs/(auto)biographies and fiction? Does the biographical portrayal have a bigger impact on you than a fictional one, because it's based on real life? Or can a work of fiction have just as big an impact on you as a biography?

 

12. Dr. Nafisi's question on the first day of class was: "What should fiction accomplish? Why should anyone read at all?" What do you think? Why was it so important to the women in the group? Is fiction important to you? (question from here.)

 

More will follow later.

Edited August 22, 2011 by frankie

[poppyshake]

I've ordered a copy from my library so hope it will turn up soon so that I can join in, it sounds fascinating

[Delilah]

I took it out in my public library and all they had was a large print edition which needless to say made the book 600 pages long. Nafisi's style of writing is good but I admit keeping track of who was who was difficult maybe because of the foreign names. All their stories were interesting and apalling at the same time. Sometimes, I hate to admit, I found the historical part about Iran rather tedious. I preferred the women's personal stories more. The book did inspire me to want to read more of the books mentioned. After reading it I sought out "Daisy Miller" and "The Great Gatsby." I loved the critical interpretations of these novels and how the women responded to them. Their feelings about the veil is in stark contrast to other Muslim women who I talked to. These women felt that it was their personal choice to wear it and felt comfortable with it though not being Muslim myself I find it hard to believe but everyone has their choice and culture. I respect that.

[vodkafan]

Sorry Frankie I tried 3 separate times to read this book and got up to about page 50 but then gave up. I really don't like reading about the plight of women in Islamic countries. Having read the Bookseller Of Kabul and that other one we did for the reading circle. I just couldn't read another one.

[lauraloves]

1. Eventhough this was not a fictional novel, how did you like the set of people featured in the book and their portrayals? Did you have any favorites?

I did have a favourite and that was Nasrin. I was very inspired by her courage and determination with everything she went through. I also did like the protrayal that the author made for herself.

 

2. What were your expectations for the book before you started reading it, and were they met by the book?

I was a little bit apprehensive about reading this book to start with as I felt I might have a bit of trouble understanding it because of the large cultural differences, but I really enjoyed it! It totally exeeded my expectations!

 

3. What do you think of Nafisi's style of writing, how she constructed the book and what she had to say?

I liked her style of writing it was very easy to get into. I loved how she constucted her memoirs around classic books, and it has grown my wishlist considerably. I was amazed by what she had to say, it amazed me that in the modern world people had such constraints.

 

4. Was this the first book you've read in this genre/by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? In addition, did the book make you want to learn and read more about the Islamic culture?

I have read a couple of 'memoirs' before and have really enjoyed them. Also in this book, the author mentions that she has written more so I will have to have a hunt around for more of her works. Also I want to learn more and more about the Islamic culture, its so different from mine!

 

5. Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

I didnt struggle with any of the story or things like that, I was however shocked at the subject matter. The treatment of the Iranian women was so shocking!

 

6. Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

Yes! I loved this book and would love to read simular things!

[frankie]

Hi everyone, glad to see some people have already been submitting their thoughts to the thread! And I apologise on my own behalf for not having been around, I have had a couple of really stressful days due to uni stuff and life, and haven't just had the time and mind to really get to this reading circle. I should have more time by tomorrow and will then really get to the subject. I hope you can excuse my bad hostness til tomorrow

[Ooshie]

I hadn't been going to join in this month's Reading Circle as I only really read fiction, but lauraloves reviewed it on her thread so well that I have ordered it from Amazon - so I will join in later this month

[Kylie]

I hope you can excuse my bad hostness til tomorrow

 

Only if you can excuse the fact that I haven't even started the book. I've been carrying it around for a couple of days but my mojo is completely gone. I'm still struggling to make a proper start on the two books I started weeks ago.

 

I feel even worse because this is a book I nominated. But I will read it. I promise. And Laura's positive answers have given me a little kick.

 

VF, can I ask you to elaborate a bit more on why you couldn't get into the book? When you say you don't like to read about their plight, is it because of the difficult or uncomfortable subject matter, or do you just find it dull and uninteresting (understandable, given you've already read a couple of similar books)? I haven't read any books on this subject yet, so I'm interested in your take on it.

[vodkafan]

 

 

VF, can I ask you to elaborate a bit more on why you couldn't get into the book? When you say you don't like to read about their plight, is it because of the difficult or uncomfortable subject matter, or do you just find it dull and uninteresting (understandable, given you've already read a couple of similar books)? I haven't read any books on this subject yet, so I'm interested in your take on it.

 

Hi Kylie, yes I am very uncomfortable with the subject matter. I think Islam- whatever its merits as a religion - is applied to a whole society and freedom of choice is forbidden, then women invariably suffer greatly. It is basically a medieval culture and there is no place for it in the modern world. Whatever the original intention of Mohammed in practice it is used as an excuse for widespread acceptance of abuse of women by men. A tool of control. Why should women not be allowed to drive or be educated? Why should their word in court be worth half that of a man?

I can't personally do anything about it so it upsets me to read about it. I don't understand why women on here are not upset more by it.

My own marriage has of course gone belly up, my wife has done things she would be stoned for in Iran. But I would defend her right to be her own person, I never owned her or seeked to control her in a way that would make her less than a person.

[lauraloves]

I hadn't been going to join in this month's Reading Circle as I only really read fiction, but lauraloves reviewed it on her thread so well that I have ordered it from Amazon - so I will join in later this month

 

hehe sorry for the extra book buying, but it is brilliant!

 

 

I feel even worse because this is a book I nominated. But I will read it. I promise. And Laura's positive answers have given me a little kick.

 

I was a bit apprehensive about starting it, but once I started reading I was hooked!

[Delilah]

Hi Kylie, yes I am very uncomfortable with the subject matter. I think Islam- whatever its merits as a religion - is applied to a whole society and freedom of choice is forbidden, then women invariably suffer greatly. It is basically a medieval culture and there is no place for it in the modern world. Whatever the original intention of Mohammed in practice it is used as an excuse for widespread acceptance of abuse of women by men. A tool of control. Why should women not be allowed to drive or be educated? Why should their word in court be worth half that of a man?

I can't personally do anything about it so it upsets me to read about it. I don't understand why women on here are not upset more by it.

My own marriage has of course gone belly up, my wife has done things she would be stoned for in Iran. But I would defend her right to be her own person, I never owned her or seeked to control her in a way that would make her less than a person.

 

I agree it is very disturbing! But I do know a Muslim woman who wears the veil and will ardently defend its use. For the life of me, I can't understand why either!

[frankie]

1. Eventhough this was not a fictional novel, how did you like the set of people featured in the book and their portrayals? Did you have any favorites?

Like Delilah, I also had problems with the foreign names and was confused about who is who most of the time. Another thing that made it difficult for me to fully grasp the different individuals was the way Nafisi constructed the book: we met people here and there, were taken back in time, to then be taken to another time. I'll come back to this in my answer to question number 2.

 

My favorite character was Nafisi's own mentor (my own copy of the book is in Finnish, so I had to google what he was called in the book in English and do correct me if I got it wrong), her magician. He was wise, he gave great advise and had words of comfort. He was the one to tell Nafisi to keep on teaching, not because of some sort of political agenda, but because it brought happiness to her and she would therefore 'nag' a little less at home. He apparently had quite the library at home, and didn't mind giving away and lending his books to people.

 

The one I probably liked the least (excluding all the 'villains' of the book, that is) was Nafisi herself, quite surprisingly. I know she's an academic, intellectual mind and this book was about reading and analysing different classics while living in a country that was in turmoil and didn't not take too kindly to English literature, and the book was not meant to be one of those 'sob stories', but all the same, I found her to be a bit too matter-of-fact. The book was not written to promote Nafisi's own person but still, I felt it lack a personal touch. I couldn't suss Nafisi out. Sometimes I felt she was a bit too cold. For example, when one of her students in her own private reading group was thinking about moving abroad, the others voiced their disbelief in anything good coming out of it and I think Nafisi joined the chorus. And then towards the end of the book she herself decided to move away from Iran. I know things, people, situations change, but I had to wonder about her.

 

I can't wait to hear if anyone has a totally different opinion on her, I fully welcome different ideas.

 

(To be continued...)

Edited August 4, 2011 by frankie

[frankie]

I'll be going away to visit my folks in Nurmes for the weekend, but they have Internet access and I'll make time to come on here and post my thoughts on the book

[frankie]

Hello again, sorry for not getting back to this sooner, I had me some chores to do at home, picking berries and stuff for the winter.

2. What were your expectations for the book before you started reading it, and were they met by the book?

The blurb in my copy gives the impression that the whole book is about the reading group of Nafisi's seven most dedicated students and that is what I was expecting. A sort of a 'Jane Austen Book Club' like in Karen Joy Fowler's novel. I was really disappointed when I realised that their reading circle played a really small part in the book and it was more about the university classes and the general political and social situation in Iran. I learnt some harrowing and yet interesting things about Iran and the Islamic culture, but I had been expecting more of a homey sort of read. I did enjoy reading all the different analyses of different novels but it was done in such a different way from what I expected.

3. What do you think of Nafisi's style of writing, how she constructed the book and what she had to say?

All the historic, cultural, social and political details that I gathered from the book were interesting, and I truly enjoyed reading the literary analysis parts. However, I sometimes struggled with the story, as it wasn't in a chronological order, Nafisi sent us here and there, in a somewhat random order in my opinion. I also think that Nafisi had a bit too impersonal a tone for the book, I couldn't really connect with her or how she fit in in the story. This is just my opinion, but I would have appreciated it had she given more of her feelings to the writing.

 

4. Was this the first book you've read in this genre/by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? In addition, did the book make you want to learn and read more about the Islamic culture?

I've read memoirs before and I've always enjoyed reading them and will continue to read them in the future. I especially enjoy memoirs that are connected with authors, books or bookshops in particular. I think I had a general notion of what was/is happening in the Islamic culture and Iran but I definitely learnt a lot of new things, and in more detail. One hears about all these horrible things happening, but it all becomes 'more true' when one reads a detailed description of the society. The things I take for granted in life are not available to everyone and it really makes one think. We can take books, for example. Just today I read this news article that Kurt Vonnegut's novel Slaughter-House Five was banned in a Missouri school and I found it truly appalling. However, it is kind of ironic that a Western civilization that is despised by Iranian government is resorting to the same methods: book banning. But think: what would it feel like if we had to acquire certain books in secret? To not be able to just order any books we like and have them delivered to us, to be read in freedom?

 

5. Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

I struggled with some of the political parts of the book, and with the structure of the book, jumping back and forth in time.

6. Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

When I think about this question, what first comes to mind is vodkafan saying that he cannot read the book. I assumed he found it boring, but when he explained himself further, I realised that it was because he found the subject matter too horrifying. I kind of flinched and thought 'am I a really uncaring person because I didn't struggle with it?'. But I guess I'm sort of used to reading about really terrifying things, having read a lot of real life stories about various different things. However, I must admit that because I didn't much enjoy reading the book, and because I couldn't for some reason unknown to me connect with the author, the other characters or the whole setting, I didn't really have to stop and think about all the cruel things I was reading about. I'm not sure if I should fault Nafisi, or the fact that maybe my mind-setting or mood was not right at the time to read this book. This might sound really thoughtless or selfish but I just wasn't gripped by the book and I felt that finishing the novel was a bit of a chore.

 

Like I said, I didn't really enjoy reading the book. I think this stems mostly from the fact that I thought it would be more about the reading group and the novels they were discussing. I think I should've taken a wee bit of break in the middle to check myself and my expectations and sort of give the book a new chance. I'm glad I read the book, because I learnt a lot of things and it made me think about all the things I take granted in life (and which I think others should be able to take for granted as well, such as being able to read whatever one fancies and dress how they like, without having to fear repercussions). And because it's another book I can cross off from the Rory book challenge.

[frankie]

I've ordered a copy from my library so hope it will turn up soon so that I can join in, it sounds fascinating

 

You're very welcome to join us when you can!

 

I took it out in my public library and all they had was a large print edition which needless to say made the book 600 pages long. Nafisi's style of writing is good but I admit keeping track of who was who was difficult maybe because of the foreign names. All their stories were interesting and apalling at the same time. Sometimes, I hate to admit, I found the historical part about Iran rather tedious. I preferred the women's personal stories more. The book did inspire me to want to read more of the books mentioned. After reading it I sought out "Daisy Miller" and "The Great Gatsby." I loved the critical interpretations of these novels and how the women responded to them. Their feelings about the veil is in stark contrast to other Muslim women who I talked to. These women felt that it was their personal choice to wear it and felt comfortable with it though not being Muslim myself I find it hard to believe but everyone has their choice and culture. I respect that.

 

Delilah, your thoughts on the book are very much alike mine! I struggled with the same things as you, and found pleasure in the same things as you. I think the main thing for me was that I would've enjoyed a more personal touch to the book, to hear more about the women in the reading group. I could've done with less political writing. And like you, I added Daisy Miller to my wishlist and I now really want to re-read Great Gatsby.

 

You brought up the subject of the veil that I was going to ask you guys about Here's the question:

7. Discuss different attitudes toward the veil in Iran (Mashid—who wore it from choice, but disliked its political enforcement; Nafisi—refusing to teach if she had to wear it; Those who thought there were bigger battles to fight). What do you think? Which side do you take?

 

I'll come back to that a bit later myself.

 

 

Sorry Frankie I tried 3 separate times to read this book and got up to about page 50 but then gave up. I really don't like reading about the plight of women in Islamic countries. Having read the Bookseller Of Kabul and that other one we did for the reading circle. I just couldn't read another one.

 

Don't worry, you gave it a fair try and you can't help it if you can't read the book. I don't want to force a book on anyone, and we can never really tell beforehand if a certain book is to our taste or not. You're welcome to follow the discussion and join in on it on a 'not-having-read-the-book' basis if you feel like it and find it interesting

 

2. What were your expectations for the book before you started reading it, and were they met by the book?

I was a little bit apprehensive about reading this book to start with as I felt I might have a bit of trouble understanding it because of the large cultural differences, but I really enjoyed it! It totally exeeded my expectations!

 

Lauraloves: I'm happy that you enjoyed the book so much! It'll be interesting to compare our views of the book because we seem to have so different opinions on it

 

 

3. What do you think of Nafisi's style of writing, how she constructed the book and what she had to say?

I liked her style of writing it was very easy to get into. I loved how she constucted her memoirs around classic books, and it has grown my wishlist considerably. I was amazed by what she had to say, it amazed me that in the modern world people had such constraints.

 

You've brought up another thing I wanted to talk about at some point. And it's something that doesn't really have that much to do with a 'serious' reading circle discussion, but more with my own personal curiosity: ( )

 

8. Have you read any of the books that were discussed in RLiT? Which ones? Did you share any opinions with Nafisi and the others, and/or did Nafisi and the rest make you think of the book(s) in a different light? And which books did you add to your wishlist?

 

 

I hadn't been going to join in this month's Reading Circle as I only really read fiction, but lauraloves reviewed it on her thread so well that I have ordered it from Amazon - so I will join in later this month

 

You're very welcome to join us!

 

Only if you can excuse the fact that I haven't even started the book. I've been carrying it around for a couple of days but my mojo is completely gone. I'm still struggling to make a proper start on the two books I started weeks ago.

 

I feel even worse because this is a book I nominated. But I will read it. I promise. And Laura's positive answers have given me a little kick.

 

We know you are very busy at the moment with the new job and stuff, so don't worry! Join us when you've had time to read the book

[frankie]

Their feelings about the veil is in stark contrast to other Muslim women who I talked to. These women felt that it was their personal choice to wear it and felt comfortable with it though not being Muslim myself I find it hard to believe but everyone has their choice and culture. I respect that.

 

Hi Kylie, yes I am very uncomfortable with the subject matter. I think Islam- whatever its merits as a religion - is applied to a whole society and freedom of choice is forbidden, then women invariably suffer greatly. It is basically a medieval culture and there is no place for it in the modern world. Whatever the original intention of Mohammed in practice it is used as an excuse for widespread acceptance of abuse of women by men. A tool of control. Why should women not be allowed to drive or be educated? Why should their word in court be worth half that of a man?

 

I agree it is very disturbing! But I do know a Muslim woman who wears the veil and will ardently defend its use. For the life of me, I can't understand why either!

 

The whole veil question is certainly interesting. I think it all stems from the fact that apparently in Iran they don't separate state from religion? The religion is a part of the politics, when in my opinion this should not be. People should have their freedom to choose their religion (or lack there of), practise it (without harming anyone else in the process) and not confuse it with anything else. The notion that a religion is so closely intertwined with the state and the government is so foreign to me, although now that I discussed it with my ex I realised that we too have a state religion, and for example pay taxes to the church unless we resign from it. But the evangelical lutheran church that is the largest church here in Finland does not dictate what goes on in Finland on a political level.

 

What do you think?

[Delilah]

Hello again, sorry for not getting back to this sooner, I had me some chores to do at home, picking berries and stuff for the winter.

2. What were your expectations for the book before you started reading it, and were they met by the book?

The blurb in my copy gives the impression that the whole book is about the reading group of Nafisi's seven most dedicated students and that is what I was expecting. A sort of a 'Jane Austen Book Club' like in Karen Joy Fowler's novel. I was really disappointed when I realised that their reading circle played a really small part in the book and it was more about the university classes and the general political and social situation in Iran. I learnt some harrowing and yet interesting things about Iran and the Islamic culture, but I had been expecting more of a homey sort of read. I did enjoy reading all the different analyses of different novels but it was done in such a different way from what I expected.

3. What do you think of Nafisi's style of writing, how she constructed the book and what she had to say?

All the historic, cultural, social and political details that I gathered from the book were interesting, and I truly enjoyed reading the literary analysis parts. However, I sometimes struggled with the story, as it wasn't in a chronological order, Nafisi sent us here and there, in a somewhat random order in my opinion. I also think that Nafisi had a bit too impersonal a tone for the book, I couldn't really connect with her or how she fit in in the story. This is just my opinion, but I would have appreciated it had she given more of her feelings to the writing.

 

4. Was this the first book you've read in this genre/by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? In addition, did the book make you want to learn and read more about the Islamic culture?

I've read memoirs before and I've always enjoyed reading them and will continue to read them in the future. I especially enjoy memoirs that are connected with authors, books or bookshops in particular. I think I had a general notion of what was/is happening in the Islamic culture and Iran but I definitely learnt a lot of new things, and in more detail. One hears about all these horrible things happening, but it all becomes 'more true' when one reads a detailed description of the society. The things I take for granted in life are not available to everyone and it really makes one think. We can take books, for example. Just today I read this news article that Kurt Vonnegut's novel Slaughter-House Five was banned in a Missouri school and I found it truly appalling. However, it is kind of ironic that a Western civilization that is despised by Iranian government is resorting to the same methods: book banning. But think: what would it feel like if we had to acquire certain books in secret? To not be able to just order any books we like and have them delivered to us, to be read in freedom?

 

5. Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

I struggled with some of the political parts of the book, and with the structure of the book, jumping back and forth in time.

6. Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

When I think about this question, what first comes to mind is vodkafan saying that he cannot read the book. I assumed he found it boring, but when he explained himself further, I realised that it was because he found the subject matter too horrifying. I kind of flinched and thought 'am I a really uncaring person because I didn't struggle with it?'. But I guess I'm sort of used to reading about really terrifying things, having read a lot of real life stories about various different things. However, I must admit that because I didn't much enjoy reading the book, and because I couldn't for some reason unknown to me connect with the author, the other characters or the whole setting, I didn't really have to stop and think about all the cruel things I was reading about. I'm not sure if I should fault Nafisi, or the fact that maybe my mind-setting or mood was not right at the time to read this book. This might sound really thoughtless or selfish but I just wasn't gripped by the book and I felt that finishing the novel was a bit of a chore.

 

Like I said, I didn't really enjoy reading the book. I think this stems mostly from the fact that I thought it would be more about the reading group and the novels they were discussing. I think I should've taken a wee bit of break in the middle to check myself and my expectations and sort of give the book a new chance. I'm glad I read the book, because I learnt a lot of things and it made me think about all the things I take granted in life (and which I think others should be able to take for granted as well, such as being able to read whatever one fancies and dress how they like, without having to fear repercussions). And because it's another book I can cross off from the Rory book challenge.

 

 

Thanks for giving a much more detailed observation of what I myself did find as drawbacks to this selection. The literary analyses were good and she should have included more about what her students thought of these books.

[Delilah]

The whole veil question is certainly interesting. I think it all stems from the fact that apparently in Iran they don't separate state from religion? The religion is a part of the politics, when in my opinion this should not be. People should have their freedom to choose their religion (or lack there of), practise it (without harming anyone else in the process) and not confuse it with anything else. The notion that a religion is so closely intertwined with the state and the government is so foreign to me, although now that I discussed it with my ex I realised that we too have a state religion, and for example pay taxes to the church unless we resign from it. But the evangelical lutheran church that is the largest church here in Finland does not dictate what goes on in Finland on a political level.

 

What do you think?

Well I didn't know that about Finland. I don't think we have anything like that in the USA. Or if we do I don't know about it!

The question of the veil is complex. It all goes back to the way you are brought up. Some things become normal for us because we grow up with it just like the Muslim women. But from the book it is clear that even then not all of them embrace it. Maybe if I get it correctly from the book it was that way because they had a period of not being required to wear it? Or did I misunderstand that part?

[vodkafan]

Well I didn't know that about Finland. I don't think we have anything like that in the USA. Or if we do I don't know about it!

The question of the veil is complex. It all goes back to the way you are brought up. Some things become normal for us because we grow up with it just like the Muslim women. But from the book it is clear that even then not all of them embrace it. Maybe if I get it correctly from the book it was that way because they had a period of not being required to wear it? Or did I misunderstand that part?

 

You got it right Delilah until the Shah of Iran was ousted in a revolution (1979 I think?) and the Ayatolla Khomenei became leader Iran was very progressive, women could do everything men could do, hold high positions in society, wear western clothes, make up etc. Conservative religious elements did not like that and the back lash against women was fierce once the religious minority was in power. They wanted to create a perfect muslim state.

In USA Government and religion is separate by law I believe. I read once the Catholic church tried to put pressure on President Kennedy in the 60's to make catholicsm the state religion but he resisted.

Edited August 10, 2011 by vodkafan

[lauraloves]

 

7. Discuss different attitudes toward the veil in Iran (Mashid—who wore it from choice, but disliked its political enforcement; Nafisi—refusing to teach if she had to wear it; Those who thought there were bigger battles to fight). What do you think? Which side do you take? [/b]

 

 

 

 

Lauraloves: I'm happy that you enjoyed the book so much! It'll be interesting to compare our views of the book because we seem to have so different opinions on it

 

 

8. Have you read any of the books that were discussed in RLiT? Which ones? Did you share any opinions with Nafisi and the others, and/or did Nafisi and the rest make you think of the book(s) in a different light? And which books did you add to your wishlist?

 

 

7 - I agreed with Nafisi. Women should not have been forced to wear the veil, and the treatment of those that refused was absolutly shocking!

 

8 - I hadnt read any of the books at all! its really shocking I know! I think if I had read the books I might have understood some parts a little bit more! I've added most of the books to my wishlist too!

 

Frankie - I love it when people have different opinions about books! It makes it all the more interesting. Look forward to discussing it with you to

Edited August 10, 2011 by lauraloves

[Kylie]

I'm still only about 100 pages into this, but my reading pace has picked up just a little.

 

Interestingly, before I started, I was wary of all the political stuff and hoping it was more about the books, but in actuality it's the complete opposite. I'm finding the stuff about the book group a little dull (mostly because it jumps around so much and I can't follow what's happening), but I'm utterly fascinated by the political goings-on in Iran.

 

I'm very ignorant about Iran's history and truth be told, I'm ignorant because I want to be. I've never tried to follow international events and revolutions, because I find it all so depressing and foreign (I.e., so far removed from my own way of life) that I feel like I'll never be able to comprehend it all. And if I could, I can't do anything to change it, so I don't bother trying to understand it all. I know that's terrible.

 

For instance, I never knew that as recently as the 1970s, Iran was a progressive society in which women were treated as equals and were able to wear whatever the hell they liked and hold positions of authority. I assumed their society had been the way it is for a very long time. The book makes my blood boil with the injustice of it all.

 

Men make women cover up so the men won't have sexual thoughts about them? Put some blinkers on then. It's not a woman's fault that the men can't...argh! I better stop before I get carried away.

 

This book, to me, reads just like a dystopian novel. But no novelist could ever dream up a society in such horrific detail.

 

 

[Maureen]

Just started this last night. Should be an interesting book. Will be joining you asap

[frankie]

Well I didn't know that about Finland. I don't think we have anything like that in the USA. Or if we do I don't know about it!

The question of the veil is complex. It all goes back to the way you are brought up. Some things become normal for us because we grow up with it just like the Muslim women. But from the book it is clear that even then not all of them embrace it. Maybe if I get it correctly from the book it was that way because they had a period of not being required to wear it? Or did I misunderstand that part?

 

I didn't know that about Finland either, I thought we didn't have state religion but then ex (when I discussed this with him) pointed out that we pay taxes to the church, which I guess is a sign of us having a state church.

 

Here's what wikipedia has to say about state church:

 

"State churches are organizational bodies within a Christian denomination which are given official status or operated by a state.

 

State churches are not necessarily national churches in the ethnic sense of the term, but the two concepts may overlap in the case of a nation state where the state boundary largely corresponds to the distribution of a single ethnic group to which a certain denomination is attached as an aspect of ethnic identity. State churches, by contrast, may also be minority denominations which are given political recognition by the state."

 

There was also a short list of countries with state church as an example and Finland was there, as well as China, Denmark, Greece, Norway, Iceland and United Kingdom.

 

You got it right Delilah until the Shah of Iran was ousted in a revolution (1979 I think?) and the Ayatolla Khomenei became leader Iran was very progressive, women could do everything men could do, hold high positions in society, wear western clothes, make up etc. Conservative religious elements did not like that and the back lash against women was fierce once the religious minority was in power. They wanted to create a perfect muslim state.

In USA Government and religion is separate by law I believe. I read once the Catholic church tried to put pressure on President Kennedy in the 60's to make catholicsm the state religion but he resisted.

 

My knowledge of Iran is very little and poor, and therefore (and perhaps because the revolution took place before my time) I didn't have any idea about Iran being a progressive country. I guess I've always figured things have been the same over there for ages. This is a rhetorical question that doesn't always ring true, but why is it always the women who have to suffer?

 

Which leads me to one issue in the book that I'd like to raise: On page 100 of my copy, Manna says, sarcastically, that Nima is of the opinion that women don't understand how difficult it is also for the men to live in Iran, that they don't know how they should act, either. That they sometimes act like macho tyrants, because they feel vulnerable. And on page 220 Nafisi talks about how she started resenting her husband's happiness and peace, because even he didn't seem to understand what Nafisi had to put up with, as a woman and an academic. So my thoughts are, as the men seem to hold the power, should the 'common' man take a more active role in objecting the government and the laws? And is there a way for them to do this, as the government seems so rigid and set in their ways? Do you agree with Nafisi, that it was easy for the men to overlook the struggles of the women because they themselves were 'safe'?

[frankie]

7 - I agreed with Nafisi. Women should not have been forced to wear the veil, and the treatment of those that refused was absolutly shocking!

 

8 - I hadnt read any of the books at all! its really shocking I know! I think if I had read the books I might have understood some parts a little bit more! I've added most of the books to my wishlist too!

 

Frankie - I love it when people have different opinions about books! It makes it all the more interesting. Look forward to discussing it with you to

 

I agree lauraloves, women should not be forced to wear the veil. To put it very simple, the veil is in my opinion part of the religion, not the culture, and religion should always be one's own personal business. I don't mind rituals, different practises etc., but I feel that one should have a choice whether to take part in the rituals etc, or not. They should not become a measure for one's degree of 'religiousness'.

 

However, as Iran is what is it, the question isn't really about whether the veil should be optional or not. (I didn't phrase this correctly in my earlier question, my bad!) It's more about what to do in Nafisi's (and other women's) situation: should one wear a veil in order to be allowed in the uni and to be able to keep on teaching, or should one rather refuse to wear it and make a statement? I don't believe there is a an answer that is right or wrong, it is up to each individual's personal point-of-view. But what would you do? (This question is directed to all, not just to lauraloves)

 

Interestingly, before I started, I was wary of all the political stuff and hoping it was more about the books, but in actuality it's the complete opposite. I'm finding the stuff about the book group a little dull (mostly because it jumps around so much and I can't follow what's happening), but I'm utterly fascinated by the political goings-on in Iran.

 

Hehe, I'm finding that a bit surprising, as I had the same qualms about the book, but my feelings towards it didn't change while reading the book, as yours did. I'm happy that you're finding it fascinating.

 

This book, to me, reads just like a dystopian novel. But no novelist could ever dream up a society in such horrific detail

 

That is an interesting way to look at it. That made me think of Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, which is a totally different matter, but there are some issues that both of these books have in common, the horrible status of women and the power that men hold, and the religious aspects.

 

When I was reading RLiT myself, I couldn't help but think of Fahrenheit 451 on many occasions. From wiki: " The short novel presents a future American society in which the masses are hedonistic and critical thought through reading is outlawed." With RLiT, the society is certainly not hedonistic (they couldn't be even if they wanted!) but it's the same basic thing: critical thinking and questioning the laws and the government are out of the question. And books are dangerous and in both cases they are ostracized, in different degrees.

 

 

Just started this last night. Should be an interesting book. Will be joining you asap

 

You're very welcome to join us when you can

[lauraloves]

I agree lauraloves, women should not be forced to wear the veil. To put it very simple, the veil is in my opinion part of the religion, not the culture, and religion should always be one's own personal business. I don't mind rituals, different practises etc., but I feel that one should have a choice whether to take part in the rituals etc, or not. They should not become a measure for one's degree of 'religiousness'.

 

However, as Iran is what is it, the question isn't really about whether the veil should be optional or not. (I didn't phrase this correctly in my earlier question, my bad!) It's more about what to do in Nafisi's (and other women's) situation: should one wear a veil in order to be allowed in the uni and to be able to keep on teaching, or should one rather refuse to wear it and make a statement? I don't believe there is a an answer that is right or wrong, it is up to each individual's personal point-of-view. But what would you do? (This question is directed to all, not just to lauraloves)

 

Oops! my bad for not reading the question properly! It really would be a hard decsion, as Nafasi really lived for teaching it seemed (to me anyway!) If she refused, she would not have been able to teach, which seemed to be one of her passions in life. Then again if she wore the veil, she would have been able to carry on with what she loved, but under circumstances that she didnt agree with. It really is like being on a see-saw!

 

Personally I think, but I probably will have changed my mind by tonight, I would have made a stand and not worn a veil. It is very easy for me to say that, because I would never have to go through anywhere near the hardships that women in Iran had to go through. It might have been a different decision if I had lived in a place like Iran and all the other presures that would surround me.