A Home at the end of the World by Michael Cunningham

[Maureen]

Two more questions - taken from http://media.us.macm...312424084RG.pdf

 

8. Do you think Jonathan, Bobby and Clare’s attempt to redefine family succeeded or failed?

Why? What do you think defines a family?What do you think the novel is ultimately saying about family?

9. What role does Erich play in the character’s lives? In what ways do you think he is a catlyst for change? Discuss the significance of death in the novel.

 

[Weave]

 

I did not think that Bobby explored his sexuality - I felt he rather went with the flow...in fact he only had 2 sexual partners we know of, and they both instigated the sex. In fact he told Claire that he was not sure he could do it, the first time.

 

 

That is a great point Maureen, Bobby did go with the flow didn't he? I liked that about him.

[shirleyz]

What role does Erich play in the character’s lives? In what ways do you think he is a catlyst for change? Discuss the significance of death in the novel.

 

while very peripheral, I think Erich had an important role in the other characters' lives... he makes Jon look at himself and question himself - why cannot he love Erich? what if he's got Erich's illness? what if he got ill when he was having unprotected sex with other men? It was Erich who made Jonathan stand back and look at his life (I think neither Clare nor Bobby had the strength to challenge him into action)

 

Jonathan's closeness to illness also makes him look at his father differently - during their talk when he visits his parents in Arizona, many times he floats away from the conversation and looks at the shadow of his father who is racked by his illness (his lovely father who he holds in such high esteem), and wonders whether he will be like him should he be ill too. I really feel this scene is pivotal in the book, as it helps Jonathan accept himself, and subtly shows us his father’s acceptance of his son’s sexuality. Jonathan also sets out to fulfill his father’s wishes – he will scatter his father’s ashes in a place which he considers as his home.

Death pervades the novel – from the very first chapters when we experience the loss of Jonathan’s sister, Carlton’s untimely death, the disintegration of Bobby’s family and the death of his parents, the death of Jonathan’s father and also Erich’s impending passing away, which I feel is omnipresent in the last few chapters, and is instrumental of driving Clare away from the house. However Bobby also belongs to the other side, he has followed his brother into a separate bubble, which keeps him distant from real life. Jonathan also has to come to terms with death – his father’s (whose ashes he keeps for a long while on the mantlepiece), Erich’s (he sees him fading away daily) and also (possibly) his own.

Edited April 13, 2011 by shirleyz

[Maureen]

Some good points there Shirleyz. I think Erich, although a minor character, played a very important role in this novel. Jon never wanted him to become an important part of his life - he was just a sex buddy - he did not encourage a friendly relationship at all - in fact it was ages before Erich was introduced to the Hendersons. After the first meeting - when they all had a blast on the rooftop, Jon disappeared. One reason for this I feel, is that he did not want to be part of comfortable family and friends 'normal' relationship. When Erich was accepted as a friend by the others, Jon felt too settled and normal and he wanted to escape. That episode marked a change in the family's life - Jon left the home.

 

Later, when Jon, Bobby and Claire were settled at their home and with their business, when Jon met Erich again, he was quite hostile towards him - probably because he made him come to terms with reality as regards illness and death. This was another milestone for Jon.

 

Another important event which came about because of Erich is that when Claire left with Rebecca, Bobby elected to stay behind, because Erich needed him.

 

8. Do you think Jonathan, Bobby and Clare’s attempt to redefine family succeeded or failed?

Why? What do you think defines a family?What do you think the novel is ultimately saying about family?

 

I think their attempt succeeded. Although bizzarre, their relationship was what family is all about - two or more people who live together, who love each other, who take care of each other in sickness and in health, whether poor or rich. Isn't that a family? I think the novel wants people to look at other non-traditional family units, and accept that although strange, they do exist and work out fine. Perhaps the author, who lived as part of a gay family himself when it was so less accepted, wants to send out a message that a different way of life could still be a good way of life.

[frankie]

Sorry I'm so late with this, I was going to finish the book on Monday but my plans for the week changed and I left to see BF and then have been busy. But I've now finished the novel and will now answer the questions on my part and will then read your posts. I'm sometimes easily influenced by other people's opinions and I want to write out my own thoughts before reading yours. Here goes:

1. What do you think of the main characters? How would you describe them?

 

Bobby. I have a hard time trying to describe Bobby, because there's so much to him and it's all so connected it's hard to know where to start. First and foremost, I'm proud of him for not having turned out bitter, cynical and pessimistic, because of his great loss during childhood. He had such a close relationship with his brother that the event of his death could've made him crack. In some ways it did, of course, but it didn't put him off life in the end.

 

However, I sometimes wondered how he didn't either see or think (out loud to the reader) how his brother wasn't ”all good” and a good example to his little brother. Carlton was pretty much an average teenager, experimenting with different things like teenagers sometimes do, but I can't understand for the life of me how he could let/make Bobby try those things as well. How could he let his kid brother try cannabis? I guess that's really not even the issue because it would be such an obvious one, I wonder more about the fact that Bobby never questioned his big brother, not even when getting older.

 

Bobby is a warm-hearted, caring person, who takes life as it comes. I think his attitude towards life is optimistic and relaxed which I really respect, and yet I felt sorry for him for lacking any ambition. He pretty much drifted along and was happy with status quo and only changed things in his life when others told him he couldn't go on the way he was. I think the term 'aloof' describes him well. He steers clear away from conflict and only wants people to be happy. I think it is very easy for others to think of him as a bit dumb, but that is because they don't know him at all. He's very in tune with other people's emotions and thoughts and has such enormous insight. He was the one who knew Clare would not come back with Rebecca, eventhough Jonathan was the one who supposedly knew Clare best.

 

Jonathan. Jonathan is another complex character to describe. Eventhough he didn't have such traumatic events happen in his childhood as Bobby did, his life and character have been affected by the disappointments in his parents' lives and their seclusion from each other. His father spent his time in the theater and his mother turned to him for company. He must've felt his mother's loneliness and discomfort, and subtle unaffection towards her husband, which must've shaped his thoughts on life, love and marriage.

 

In a way Jonathan is very vague to me, I can't seem to know what he is all about. He is always on the lookout for something, something better, somewhere or someone to belong to. Something that makes him calm and content.

 

Clare. I grew to despise her by the end. At first she seemed like a sophisticated, quirky, chic woman of the world who makes perfect company for Jonathan. Like her cynical jokes are just a cover for a normal, insecure woman. The more I read, the more astounded I was at her lack of compassion and sympathy, which I think should be/are indicatives of a normal person. Her selfishness unfolded page by page. When I grew 'accustomed' to that and started to accept that as a trait of hers (like there's no use fighting it, that's just what she's like and I don't have to try and think maybe she'll grow and change and I could like her), I was more disturbed to realise how little she thinks of other people. She hates Alice, notices that she's not to like any of the people at Ned's funeral (poor Clare, it must've been hard to attend a 'party' where she won't find new friends.......), she doesn't give Bobby any real credit, and thinks that Erich only pretends to endure Rebecca, and that he can't really love her even if he likes her well enough. How dare she make these assumptions? Oh how I despise her.

 

2. Any particular parts that you liked or disliked a lot? That shocked you or that you had to read more than once?

 

My most liked parts about the novel: When Jonathan met Bobby in the school cafeteria and how they made friends. It was such a random thing that became a norm for them for a few days and then they were inseparable. Overall my favorite part of the novel is the first part where Jonathan and Bobby are introduced to the reader and their relationship is built. Another favorite part is when the boys put up the Home Café. They're such a lovable duo.

 

My most disliked parts seem to all do with Clare. How she left with Rebecca and lied about returning in a few days. How she seduced Bobby, thinking she'll have his baby and raise the baby with Jonathan. I was so shocked how unsympathetic she was towards Alice at the funeral. I had to read some of her thoughts and comments during that perios a few times. When Bobby is silent in the car after the ceremony, she thinks he's being considerate of her sadness (that has nothing to do with the occasion), and doesn't even consider he might be silent because of his own, real grief about having lost a father-like figure in his life.

 

I would've also been shocked at Jonathan's leaving Bobby and Clare, but I've read this book before so I knew it was coming.

3. What do you think of the different friendships going on?

 

Jonathan and Bobby's friendship is such a genuine one, it is such a rare and admirable relationship. Their bond is so strong because of many different factors which makes it all the more complex and unbreakable, in my opinion: they grew up together, they experienced and loved together. They learnt each other and each other's feelings and innermost secrets. They both had problems with their family, if not exactly similar, ones that made them able to understand each other's problems better. They know each other and I think they truly respect each other for the way they are.

 

Jonathan and Clare's friendship is a more difficult one to understand and/or describe. There's the underlying sexual tension, which neither of them confronts, maybe in fear of possibly jeopardising their friendship. Had they openly discussed Jonathan's sexuality and avoided making assumptions based on what is 'normal homosexuality' (meaning not finding the opposite sex ever appealing), they might have actually come together as a real couple. I'm not sure how that would've worked out in the end though. To me it seems that Clare doesn't actually let anyone in.

Bobby and Clare's 'friendship' is one of give and take. Bobby gives, Clare takes. This is Jonathan: ”I looked at Clare, who was looking at Bobby with a mingled expression of wonder and uncertainty. I think until then she had not realized he was fully, independently human, with a history of loss and great expectations. He had presented himself to her as a collection of quirks and untapped potential – she'd all but invented him. Just as the hypnotist must see his subject as a field for planting suggestions in, Clare would have seen Bobby as a project whose success or failure reflected only on her. She was the one woman he'd slept with. She selected his clothes and cut his hair. Arranged marriages might have been like this, the bride arriving so young and unformed that she appears to absorb the union into her skin, her husband's proclivities taken on and made indistinguishable from her own. Clare, the husband, must have seen for the first time that Bobby had had a life outside her sphere. I couldn't tell whether she was pleased or dismayed.” I think Clare was jealous of Bobby and Jonathan's relationship, but instead of really admitting that to herself and accepting it, and trying to really befriend Bobby, she secretly disliked him and took every opportunity to see his good traits in a good light. To me it seemed that Clare took his positive calm and happy-go-lucky attitude to be stupidity or something like that. She didn't even think Bobby loved their child.

 

(I'm beginning to think my own dislike for Clare is starting to obscure my thoughts on everything and everyone, I can't wait to read what you others thought of her, if I'm alone in seeing everything she did/said and didn't say/do in a bad light...)

 

A thought that came to my mind at some point: I had problems with the names Clare and Alice, I sometimes thought of Jonathan's Mum when I was reading Clare's thoughts and vice versa. I came to realise that the two names have so many alphabets in common that it might be the reason behind my confusion. Then I started to think if this was intentional on Cunningham's part, and I went even further than that: I began to think maybe Clare is the mother figure Jonathan left behind when he left for college. The one he grew annoyed with, partly because she was interrupting his and Bobby's alone time and partly because Bobby didn't seem to mind, he actually welcomed her company. Maybe on some subconscious level Jonathan needed a new mom figure in his life and Clare offered him that.

Edited April 16, 2011 by frankie

[frankie]

4. Do you think any events/circumstances played a major part in shaping the boys' lives?

 

In Bobby's case, most definitely. The death of his life's rock, his brother Carlton, must've affected him in so many ways. First, he saw him die infront of his eyes. Second, he could've warned him about the glass door, but thought it would be a good prank to let him run into it. He must've felt guilt over it over the years. Third, the family dynamics changed drastically. Understandably, his mother was devastated and started taking sleeping pills, which suggests that she wasn't emotionally there for Bobby. I don't think his father was either. I don't think Bobby had anyone to talk to about his brother's death so he kept it inside and I'm sure he medicated himself with cannabis, distancing himself from any real human contact. We saw what he was like when he met Jonathan. He seemed totally out of it. I think it all contibuted to his aloofness, taking things as they come, being the passive person who goes along with whatever his active friends/family suggests they do. I already discussed his complete lack of ambition and direction in life. However, I don't think that he necessarily felt it was a bad thing, at least not all the time. I think there were definitely times when he was truly happy.

 

With Jonathan, I'm not so sure. The death of his twin siblings in birth caused his parents to become estranged from one another (I cannot remember how their relationship was before that even if I try), there were bitterness, accusations. His mother felt anxious when his father was home, and noticeable relaxed when he left for the movie theater. Jonathan must've picked up on this early on. To what extent this affected him, it's hard to say. Maybe it drove him to never trust love or people, or what they seem to be, or maybe it drove him to never settle for less than he feels he deserves. Maybe it drove him to reach for impossible love. Argh. I feel so stupid saying these cliches, but to me, Jonathan was the most difficult person to analyse, understand and grasp. I can't wait to read what you guys think of him.

 

5. Each chapter is narrated by a different 'main' character. Did that work in your opinion?

I'm usually very conservative about narration, I like there to be only one narrator because more than 1, or 2 at most, will only confuse me. However, in this novel the different narratives worked for me and it added to the story and the roundedness of the characters, at least for me. Although during some parts, it made me think how honest each person is in their account (my professor is always hassling us to think about whether a first person narrator is honest, or biased, and what they're telling the reader and what they're omitting). And here I go again about Clare: I was very wary about some of the things she said about the other characters. For example, this is what she says about Erich and his conduct with Rebecca:

 

”He didn't charm Rebecca as thoroughly as Jonathan did, but he held her interest. He had a singular ability to focus, and I suspect she felt secure with him. He could so perfectly imitate a man who was good with children.” …

 

”He seemed to have taken on a project: never to show this little girl any unpleasant or mean-spirited behavior, never to be anything but pliant and companionable in her presence. He was different from Jonathan. He didn't love her. He liked her well enough. Being good with her was one of the organizing principles around which he built his days. He made it his job.”

 

First of all, Rebecca is not Erich's daughter, so why should he feel obliged to love her? And second, who is Clare to judge what Erich thinks of Rebecca? Is she incapable of even considering that Erich might actually be a person with real feelings, who might actually like children and really like Rebecca's company? Rebecca must've been a breath of fresh air for him: she wouldn't treat him with silk gloves because he was dying. She would take him as he is, a person. Not a person with a fatal disease.

 

Besides: I think Clare might actually be talking about herself and she projects her own feelings onto Erich; just a few pages prior to the quote above, Clare discusses her own relationship with Erich:

 

”Being a mother made certain things impossible, things I could have done almost without thinking in my other life. I couldn't deny Erich what he needed and at the same time I couldn't embrace him. I found that more or less against my will I'd become capable only, singularly, of protection. I suppose it was sentimental, thought I didn't taste anything like sentiment in my mouth. I felt hard and clinical, glacial. For the first time I didn't think about myself. A district in my brain, that which I'd thought of as me, seemed to have been sucked clean. In its place was this steady uninflected drive to do what was needed. I fed Erich while the boys were at work, saw that he took his medicine, helped him to the toilet on the days he needed help. I spoke kindly to him. Nothing could have stopped me from doing that. But I didn't care about him. In a sense our relations were strictly business. I cared only, truly, for Rebecca, who was alive and growing. Erich had already passed partway out of the world. While his comfort and safety were vitally important to me his existence was not.”

 

 

6. What do you think of the descriptions by the author?

I really don't have a good answer to this one, I think because I'm a very plot-driven reader normally and if a novel isn't overtly descriptive or non-descriptive, I usually don't notice these things. It'll be interesting to see what you others have come up with.

 

 

7. Did you enjoy the book? Will you be reading any more books by Michael Cunningham?

 

I did enjoy the novel. I've read it before, in 2007, and back then I was blown away by it. I laughed and cried. I gave it a 5/5 rating back then and considered it to be one of my absolute favorites, making my personal top 5 reads ever. I guess it really struck a cord with me back then. I read it in Finnish at that time, so even the translation must've been superbly good because I just found it so beautiful.

 

This time around, I read it in the original language and I have to say I didn't find it any different, languagewise. So I was basically waiting to be blown away again. However I must admit that I was not. The story is good, I still really like Bobby and Jonathan and Alice. I can't remember what I thought of Clare during my first read, so I cannot compare my notes on her. But I didn't find anything really extraordinary about the novel. Either it wasn't that amazing in the first place and I was fooled, or my tastes have slightly changed by now. Or maybe I was off moodwise.

 

 

I will definitely read more by Cunningham in the future. After my first read of AHatEotW in 2007, I've bought The Hours, Flesh and Blood and Specimen Days, but haven't yet read them. I'm also planning on buying his latest novel By Nightfall.

Edited April 16, 2011 by frankie

[Maureen]

I did not form a high opinion of Claire, to be honest, but you really really seem to dislike her Frankie

 

I did not think Claire went so far as to dislike Bobby, but she did not think much of him either. I think for her, he was a bit more than a sperm donor - he helped her fulfill her wish of becoming a parent. However I think I prefer Claire to Alice - Alice's character is too suffocating and controlling for me. She sucked the life out of Jon for a lot of years, and just tolerated Ned - she never had a good word to say about anyone really.

[Ooshie]

That's interesting, Maureen; to me, Alice was someone who found life painful and was traumatised by the difficult birth and death of her twins, but carried on performing her role in life as well as she was able to manage. I was glad when she finally got the chance to enjoy life nearer the end of the novel.

 

Claire, on the other hand, came over to me like a spoilt child who wanted to think of herself as unconventional and different when she was really just selfish.

[Weave]

Sorry everyone, the rest of my answers are coming I'm not a fan of Claire either, I found her quite mean sometimes and in my mind she put Bobby and Jonathan down a lot, like they should be over the moon that she was in fact their friend.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Weave

[shirleyz]

for me Clare is "redeemed" with the birth of Rebecca. Her motherly instincts shine out and make her a person with a misson in life; she is no longer riding on life's bandwagon, but rather has a purpose and feels responsible for her child. Her job is to protect her daughter - I think she (Rebecca) anchors her into life, making her face her responsibilities...

Edited April 16, 2011 by shirleyz

[Ooshie]

I agree that Claire felt love for her daughter, but my feeling when she took Rebecca and left was that she was just doing what she herself wanted again, not what would be best for Rebecca; the bit where Claire talks about Rebecca getting old enough to realise that their lives were odd and starting to hate Claire then reinforced that for me. Claire thought about going back but didn't, even the thought that her daughter wouldn't enjoy their life didn't make her think less about what she wanted and more about what might be good for her daughter.

[frankie]

Do you think Jonathan, Bobby and Clare’s attempt to redefine family succeeded or failed? Why? What do you think defines a family?What do you think the novel is ultimately saying about family?

I'd like to say it failed because in the end, a big part of that family took off and left the rest hanging, but then I realised, that's what happens in families sometimes. I can't really force an ideal family -scenario when I know that no family is perfect. So I think I must say they succeeded. Jonathan, Bobby and Clare all came together from their respective dysfunctional families and created their own family. It's was sort of a friend-family at first, but was taken to another level when they each developed very strong bonds to one another and a child was conceived by two people in that family. It is a rather unconventional (not say unique) family because there are 'two Dads and one Mum', although the roles of each individual are more complicated then that.

 

In my opinion, one could say there are two families, sometimes separate, sometimes overlapping, in one's life. First there is the family one grows up in, whether it be a 'normal' family, a foster home, some kind of institution. The second family is the one you make for yourself when you move out and start your own life. It's not only your partner and the possible children, but your friends who you go to and who come to you when in need. It's the people you WANT to spend your holidays with.

 

I think the book is basically saying families come in all different shapes and sizes, and it's not only about blood lineage. It is saying that a family life is not always continual, it's a complicated, ever-growing, ever-evolving mixture of people who touch your life daily. In the end, a family is something one can define for themselves.

 

What role does Erich play in the character’s lives? In what ways do you think he is a catlyst for change? Discuss the significance of death in the novel.

I feel like Erich is a sidekick for the others. To put it quite harshly, I think Jonathan was with him only to subconsciously explore himself and his own needs and desires. Jonathan wasn't with him because he believed they would become a real item, he was with him to have his sexual needs satisfied. I guess Erich was a way to pass the time. He was also something for Jonathan to have besides Bobby and Clare. I think Jonathan was scared of becoming too attached to them, so that he'd have no one else in the world, and because I think he didn't want to commit to that at that point of his life, he kept his options open by having Erich on the side. I'm not saying he knowingly used Erich.

 

I think Bobby had a very special kind of relationship with Erich. I'm not sure how deep it was, or how close they felt towards one another, but I adored how easily Bobby approached Erich from the get go, talking to him about bands and his vinyl albums. They had some common ground together. This seems such an elementary part of Bobby: he never judges a person beforehand, he gives each and every one a chance and has this very easy, natural approach to making someone's acquaintance.

 

Later on I think Erich became to play a very different and significant role for Bobby. Bobby had lost his dear brother very unexpectedly and quickly. I believe he saw his brother Carlton in Erich when he was slowly dying, or at least thought of Carlton when he was with Erich. I think he felt like now he had a chance to ease someone's pain and to be apart of the process of dying, to actually have a chance to prepare for it, something he didn't have with Carlton.

 

For Jonathan, Erich (in his state of sickness) represented a result in life that could have just as easily been Jonathan's. There is a time in the novel when Jonathan thinks he's sick, and then it's not mentioned again, and then after some time he thinks about possibly having HIV (because Erich does), but in the end we don't know what is really true. There are so many ways for Jonathan to feel about this. Relief for not being HIV positive, sadness for Erich being so, guilt of being the one who survives, a need to look after Erich who could just as easily been Jonathan himself. It must take so much courage to invite a dying person into your home and helping and nursing him all they way until the end. Clare was right in the end about the house having so much death in it.

I'll take a wee break from this, do some other stuff and then get back to the thread, to read all your posts

Edited April 17, 2011 by frankie

[Maureen]

Bobby had lost his dear brother very unexpectedly and quickly. I believe he saw his brother Carlton in Erich when he was slowly dying, or at least thought of Carlton when he was with Erich. I think he felt like now he had a chance to ease someone's pain and to be apart of the process of dying, to actually have a chance to prepare for it, something he didn't have with Carlton.

 

 

I never saw this at time I was reading the book, and I am not really of the opinion Bobby found Carlton in Erich. I rather think Bobby was made that way - he is the child who would pick the three - legged puppy out of a whole litter, who will befriend the only other friendless guy at school, who would carry his friend across the desert if he broke his leg, or who would give his time and energy to help anyone who is less - less fortunate, less strong, less able, less happy.

[Maureen]

5. Each chapter is narrated by a different 'main' character. Did that work in your opinion?

I must admit that this frustrated me for the first few chapters, as I usually hate that, but in this case, I think it worked. It gave all the main characters equal importance, which I think is central to this book, as every one of them played an improtant part in the story, and each made such a great influence on the others.

 

6. What do you think of the descriptions by the author?

It is my first Cunningham novel, so I don't know if this is his way of writing, but I really found this book descriptive. Certain times, the events happeneing felt so real, it was as if I were in the next room. For example, reading about Carlton's accident, I felt as if I could see the glass breaking, and the blood everywhere. The cemetary scent I could picture really clearly - as if I were hiding behind some column and watching everything.

[Maureen]

Two more questions - taken from http://media.us.macm...312424084RG.pdf

 

10. Discuss the significance of the title A Home at the End of the World. Does it suggest hope, despair, or both? Explain

 

11. As a young mother, Alice says of her relationship with her son Jonathan and his best friend Bobby: “Sometimes in those days I thought of Wendy from Peter Pan—an island mother to a troop of lost boys” (p. 87). What do you think she means? How does the theme of “lost boys” figure into the novel as a whole? What role do the women play in relation to this theme?

[frankie]

(Sorry that my posts will come in big chunks, I want to go through your posts first and then come back to the comments you've made on my initial thoughts on the book. )

 

I've taken a little break now from my thoughts on the book and now I'm back to read your posts and comment on them. Can't wait to see what you guys think

 

When Erich came to visit them in the country Bobby could not sleep, he was thinking about him all the time. When he realised that Clare was leaving with Rebecca, he did not join them as he felt it his job? duty? to look after Erich.

 

When I think back, it didn't seem that Bobby was very close to Rebecca, his own daughter. I can't remember if he ever really wrote anything about her, and I don't mean the occasional mention of her daily activities etc. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. And I don't think Bobby ever felt truly close to Clare, in the way he did to Jonathan. I don't think his staying was so much about feeling a sense of duty to stay and take care of Erich, I think it had more to do with staying with Bobby, who was his friend and a kind of a brother and really the only thing he had close to a real family. And they also had their home and the business, and it was initially Bobby's idea to move to the country, I think (which is quite a huge thing because Bobby was never the instigator in anything).

 

Claire was the one who did not want to grow old. She had Peter Pan syndrome. Bobby’s first impression of Claire was that she had a wife like relationship with Jon. However she could not have a sexual relationship with Jon, so she had one with Bobby.

 

I also felt that she could not have a sexual relationship with Jon, but thinking back, I've began to wonder why that was, really. Jon's only ever had sex with men and doesn't seem to be attracted to women at any point, but I never got the sense that he was 'all the way' homosexual. I mean, he declares his love for Clare a couple of times, but he's never made any sort of advances towards her. Do you think his love is only platonic, the friend kind of love, or could there have been something else there? And this is a general question, not directed only towards you, Maureen. I couldn't really make up my mind about it so I'd like to see what you others thought about it.

 

One strange thing that came out later - she was the eternal hippie - but she did not trust a hippie with her daughter (the doctor - Doctor Glass. Jon also mentioned that he did Tai Chi, which he did not think a suitable past time - he would have preferred him to play golf.)

 

I think Clare is one of those people who have strong opinions, which can change when it best suits her. She can sometimes go from one extreme end to another, just like in your example. I think she's trying hard to be a quirky, unconventional person (maybe rebelling against her parents' wealth and possibly conservative status) but sometimes when confronted with something she doesn't understand or like, she will forget what she's kind of supposed to think and can be really conservative herself. She could go to a hippie doctor herself, because she's hip, and yet she won't take her daughter to see the same doctor, because instictively she doesn't trust hippies.

 

 

She was quite a character - she influenced both boys quite a lot. For some reason or another, I kept waiting for her and Bobby to have a sexual relationship....

 

Now that's an interesting take on things, it never crossed my mind! I love it how people have so different readings on the same book.

 

The first time that Alice went into Jonathan's room while they were smoking and she joined them. I did not think she would really do it - so I had to read it twice to make sure.

 

From what little I've read the comments so far, it seems like people have very different opinions of Alice. Some see her as a stifling mother who's too concerned in his son's life, some see her as a person who's trying to cope from losing her twins as best as she can. I'm inclined towards the latter. I do think she should've 'let go' of Jonathan at an earlier stage and realise her son's job is not to keep her company but to grow into his own individual. However, she's only human and I don't think she realised to which degree she might be harming Jonathan's development. She wasn't happily married, she lost the twins and then tried to carry on as best as she could.

 

I know from personal experience how annoying it can be when you're in your teens and your Mum barges in, to talk to you and your friends and see what's up. It's like, ”Mum, you're not young anymore, and certainly not hip, and you're only embarrassing me”, and I think it's a natural stage in anyone's life. Now that I've put some years between then and now, I think she was at times naturally concerned for Jonathan, to befriend such a ”drifter” of a friend. And what mother doesn't want to know their children's friends and join in on the conversation every now and then. I loved how easily Bobby reacted to those situations.

 

There have been comments here saying that Alice didn't say anything nice about Ned and wasn't particularly nice (?), I can't remember noticing this but it does make my opinion of her a bit less positive. She could've changed things in her life. And on the other hand, if Ned was unhappy because of her unhappiness, he could've also done something about it.

 

I read the bit when Claire and Rebecca left twice as well. I could not believe that Bobby knew what would happen and just do nothing. What kind of person would be capable of that?

 

I couldn't believe it either and it did make me uneasy with Bobby in the end. Maybe he thought that he couldn't change Clare's mind about leaving for good even if he said something. Maybe he believed he didn't have such a pull on people. Maybe he thought that he shouldn't interfere with other people's lives, him being the sort of person who has sometimes problems even with dealing with his own life. It's hard to say. I think he should've at least told Jonathan about his suspicions.

I really enjoyed reading this book, though I really have to say that it is not a book I would have ever chosen to read if I wasn't participating in this circle.

 

I must say I would not have chosen it either, but I am glad I read it. It is also quite easy to miss if browsing in a book store - the cover is very insipid.

 

That's part of the beauty of the reading circle, we read books which we wouldn't normally pick up ourselves. I also confess that I didn't pick this book for myself, it was my friend who bought the book after reading the blurb, in a book sale. Later I borrowed it from her, fell in love with the story and kept the copy, and bought a new one to replace hers which I didn't want to give back to her

 

 

 

[frankie]

1. What do you think of the main characters? How would you describe them?

Jonathan is constantly seeking happiness. His mother suffocates him as a child, however, we hardly learn anything about his feelings for her; it was his father he adored. He has fond memories of his father (remembers how he used to carry him on his shoulders, the feeling of his skin, etc) I think Ned was more accpeting of Jon’s sexuality than Alice, who never quite accepted that her son is gay. When Ned and Jon speak in Arizona, it is Ned who sets him thinking about settling down, inviting him to find a “place” where he is comfortable with himself. I’m not sure how to term his relationship with Erich – they see each other for a number of years but they don’t commit to each other. He is terrified of catching his illness, and only at the very end (the pond scene) does he fully accept him. He is quite mean when he first speaks to him (Erich) about his appearance due to his illness.

 

 

Did anyone get the sense that Jonathan felt already during his childhood that his mother was suffocating him? Not that I'm questioning the suffocating, I'm just wondering when Jonathan made this discovery.

 

I felt that Ned was a rather distant, non-vacant person in his family's life, I couldn't remember anything about him in Jonathan's childhood, and now I'm happy you've reminded of some important aspects.

 

To say her relationship with Alice is stiff is an understatement. Only when she has her child do I manage to associate with her and understand her actions. As a mother she feels her love and sense of protection for her daughter overwhelm her (which she describes as a “monster”). While she cares for Erich, she is only really interested in her daughter’s wellbeing. I understand her decision to move away, even if I don’t completely agree with it.

 

This is something that I don't understand about Clare. Jonathan has lost his dear father, and she doesn't seem to have any sympathy towards him, or to Alice who is after all Jonathan's mother. I don't know if this is because Jonathan had left her and they'd spent a year apart and she is still hurt because of that, but in my opinion that is no excuse. I don't understand how she comes to judge Alice so quickly, not really making any effort to get to know her.

 

Think about the people who are in her life during the course of the novel. She loves Jonathan, so he's safe. Bobby comes with Jonathan, so he's safe too, and Clare will build a relationship with him. Erich comes with Jonathan, so she'll have to tolerate him, but because he offers nothing to Clare and is only a dying person to be looked after, she doesn't develop any kind of bond with him. She doesn't have to be concerned with Alice because she lives far away and besides, is nothing like Clare. And that's about all the people there are.

 

 

 

In a way I understand why Clare is keeping her distance with Erich, emotionwise. She is a mother and she is afraid of him passing his disease onto Rebecca. Mother's worst nightmare. A mother's first priority is her children. But even after that I would she could show a little sympathy. I'm beginning to think she doesn't esteem anyone who isn't of any use to her or whom she doesn't initially like/love.

 

I'll give credit to Clare for one thing: she could give Alice an outlet for her built up emotions when Jonathan and Bobby weren't around. Even then she was hesitant and reluctant but she did it.

 

I've been thinking about the time when Alice and Clare interact after the funeral. Alice picks up on Clare's dislike for her, and I think either because of that or because she doesn't like her either, they agree to not like each other. What is it about Clare that Alice doesn't like? Is it because she's her rival, in her relationship with Jonathan? Or is Alice purely not liking Clare's character? Remember when she warns Jonathan about Clare later on in the novel. Is she purely concerned for Jonathan's sake or does she simply want him to be rid of Clare so she'll be the only woman in his life again?

 

Alice is a bitter lady – she marries in haste to spite her parents, and then she repents at leisure. I cannot understand how she can tell her son that she doesn’t want her baby, the daughter she then looses. She resents any friendship Jon has outside of their own – as a child she keeps him home with her; as an adult she dislikes his friends, in fact she has no good word to say either about Bobby or Clare. I kept expecting her to do something weird (like Maureen I thought she would sleep with Bobby), though I must say the fact that she helps Bobby in his first catering venture “redeems” her in a way...

 

I didn't notice some of these things about Alice when I was reading the novel. Maybe she was so convincing in her words about only looking out for Jonathan, that I didn't see that she was doing much more than that. Now that I think about it, it does seem very contradicting. On one hand she talks to Ned about her concerns about Bobby's character, and then on the other hand she has no qualms about mingling with the boys, dancing with Bobby, and smoking joints with them. Maybe because she can't get rid of Bobby, she decides to make an ally of him and that way get to Jonathan again. I think she's also very flattered by Bobby's including her in, almost as a peer.

 

I cannot understand why Bobby did not want to go with Claire and Rebecca...they could have been a family together....Bobby was not in love with Jon or Erich - so why not leave and go with Claire and Rebecca?.

 

While I understand how hard it must have been to let go, I completely understand his reasoning. He wanted to set them free, in fact he says "Clare has taken Rebecca to the world of the living - its noise and surprises, its risk of disappointment. ... It's where Rebecca should be. ... I've followed my brother into this world and I've never left it..."

He wanted his daughter to live her life independenty from what held him back, he didn't want her life to be prejudiced by her parents' strange household arrangements.

 

So his brother's pull was greater than Rebecca's and Claire's? He could not find it in himself to join the world of the living?

 

He was never quite a part of their life - we hardly see any interaction between him and Clare following the first time they sleep together; there are only undertones which refer to the fact that they are still a "couple". He seems to be more preoccupied with the manual work required with the house and their new restaurant - it's like he has abdicated his fatherly responsibility to Jon, who even Clare admits is better at calming their daughter. It is Jon who keeps refering to Rebecca as "our child" when Clare says "my".

I feel Bobby is always on the sidelines watching on. I was very touched and surprised when towards the end he can see his daughter standing in front of their house which is now her inheritance, in 20 years' time. why is he not there with her? If he's about 32-35 when they leave, he would still be in his 50s by then...

I'm not sure if I'm extrapolating the story, but is it that there is a chance that he is ill too?

 

I with shirleyz, Jonathan has a bigger pull on Bobby than Rebecca and Clare. And while I couldn't really analyse why this is, shirleyz did it very aptly

 

Yes it is a possibility isn't it? His two partners had a series of relationships, and during the 80s, protection was not as de rigeur as it is today. I think this is something a lot of people, especially homosexuals, grippled with, twenty or so years ago - the fear and the uncertainty....

 

A very interesting theory on Bobby possibly being ill himself, it never entered my mind.

 

3. What do you think of the different friendships going on?

I also think that during their teenage years, Bobby was somewhat the leader, and Jon used to ‘follow’, but when they grew up and Jon moved to New York and Bobby followed, they reversed roles, with Jon being the leader and Bobby the follower.

 

Excellent point about the reversed roles!

 

 

[Weave]

5. Each chapter is narrated by a different 'main' character. Did that work in your opinion? ~

 

I liked that the chapters were told by a different main character because you got to know the character better and their mindset, I particularly enjoyed Bobby's point of view, for me, he was so contented and happy, and expressed love in so many ways, especially with Erich, when he wants to get into bed with Erich, to make Eric feel better, to feel a connection, I thought was very sweet and kind.

 

6. What do you think of the descriptions by the author?

 

I am in two minds about it to be honest, at some points, his descriptions where spot on about the characters, and then sometimes, he wandered off subject.

 

7. Did you enjoy the book? Will you be reading any more books by Michael Cunningham?

 

I enjoyed it and I am glad I read it. I really liked Bobby, Jonathan and Alice because they were strong characters in their own way, and I liked how Jonathan faces certain aspects of his life his Dad's illness was a key part for Jonathan and it helped him to face his own mortality. I respected Alice too, she was unhappy in her marriage, as was her husband, and he hid at his cinema, while she hid at home, she did try to make things better and despite her thoughts on leaving her husband, she never did. I respected how much change she made in her life and her strength of character. I think I will read books by Michael Cunningham, he is an insightful writer.

 

8. Do you think Jonathan, Bobby and Clare’s attempt to redefine family succeeded or failed?

Why? What do you think defines a family?What do you think the novel is ultimately saying about family?

 

There are so many things that define a family, I have friends which are like family to me, I think a family is about love, loving and caring for each other and I think Jonathan, Bobby and Clare achieved that despite Clare's thoughts on it and eventually leaving, which I thought was unfair on Rebecca because Clare felt that it would be strange for Rebecca, it may have been but they would have coped as a family to help her get through it. I think the novel is saying that family is what you make of it, how you nurture it, etc.

 

One more question to be answered. I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts.

[Maureen]

I also felt that she could not have a sexual relationship with Jon, but thinking back, I've began to wonder why that was, really. Jon's only ever had sex with men and doesn't seem to be attracted to women at any point, but I never got the sense that he was 'all the way' homosexual. I mean, he declares his love for Clare a couple of times, but he's never made any sort of advances towards her. Do you think his love is only platonic, the friend kind of love, or could there have been something else there? And this is a general question, not directed only towards you, Maureen. I couldn't really make up my mind about it so I'd like to see what you others thought about it.

 

 

 

I always understood that Jon was 100% homosexual. He loves Claire, but in a friendly, caring sort of way - sort of like a Mum or an auntie, or a big sister. I never came across an inkling of him showing sexual interest in any female.

 

 

I think Clare is one of those people who have strong opinions, which can change when it best suits her. She can sometimes go from one extreme end to another, just like in your example. I think she's trying hard to be a quirky, unconventional person (maybe rebelling against her parents' wealth and possibly conservative status) but sometimes when confronted with something she doesn't understand or like, she will forget what she's kind of supposed to think and can be really conservative herself. She could go to a hippie doctor herself, because she's hip, and yet she won't take her daughter to see the same doctor, because instictively she doesn't trust hippies.

 

 

That's a very apt description of what I think Claire is like.

 

That's part of the beauty of the reading circle, we read books which we wouldn't normally pick up ourselves. I also confess that I didn't pick this book for myself, it was my friend who bought the book after reading the blurb, in a book sale. Later I borrowed it from her, fell in love with the story and kept the copy, and bought a new one to replace hers which I didn't want to give back to her

 

 

It is isn't it? That and how different people see different things when reading the exact same book! :)

 

I have enjoyed reading all of your thoughts.

 

I have too. It is really interesting.

[Weave]

^I got that impression too Maureen, that he had no sexual interest at all in Clare, he was like a sister to her, Clare knew that they would never sleep together, but she still secretly hoped that Rebecca would be his daughter because she wanted all of his qualities to be part of her but I think if given the chance, Jonathan would have been a influence on Rebecca's life.

[shirleyz]

I'll give credit to Clare for one thing: she could give Alice an outlet for her built up emotions when Jonathan and Bobby weren't around. Even then she was hesitant and reluctant but she did it.

 

 

well said! I've been trying to put this scene into words... Clare helps Alice in her time of grief, even tho the older woman tries to push her away, Clare can feel she needs a shoulder to cry on, and she even keeps the boys away while Alice grieves.

 

You've got some really great points Frankie - it shows that you really like this book! I hope to be able to comment about some of your answers soon

[frankie]

1.What do you think of the main characters? How would you describe them? ~

I found Bobby to be the more focused character of the the trio, despite how he was when he was younger with his drug taking, he is focused, he knew what he liked and what he did not like, who he wanted in his life and once he had that, he was contented, he created this bubble around himself but he let people in, if he felt they should be there.

 

An excellent description of Bobby, now that you mentioned he did seem focused in his life. Even if he didn't have much ambition and some of his decisions resulted from the push of other people, he was focused on the things he did and the people that surrounded him. I find it very admirable that a person with such a harrowing childhood and who doesn't seem to have any ambition or goals in life can be so happy and content, and really a rather balanced person.

I liked the fact that Bobby eventually moved in with Alice and Ned, he was like a substitute son because Alice missed Jonathan and Bobby missed his mother, it was quite a co~dependent relationship but they seemed happy with it to a point (Alice was also encouraging Bobby to leave and have his own life).

 

Another good point, the co-dependent relationship. But it did work for them. I think there was definitely some co-dependence also in the triangle relationship between Jonathan, Bobby and Alice.

Really? To me it felt more like they made peace with the fact that it would be just them from now on, just like the beginning... Clare seemed very determined about making it on her own - she would rather face being a single mother than part of a strange household

 

That's something I find very odd because at first she seemed perfectly content with being a part of a strange household. Maybe Rebecca made her realise she would have to 'grow up' and make a 'real' life for themselves.

 

I also think that in the end of the novel where it was just Erich, Jonathan and Bobby, and Clare and Rebecca had been gone for some months, they'd made their peace with being just the three (two) of them from now on out. I am a bit amazed that Jonathan apparently made no effort to try and make Clare come back. I think he missed Rebecca more than Bobby did, but then again, Bobby's not one to miss the things he doesn't have to begin with, or knows he can't have back.

 

I did not think that Bobby explored his sexuality - I felt he rather went with the flow...in fact he only had 2 sexual partners we know of, and they both instigated the sex. In fact he told Claire that he was not sure he could do it, the first time.

 

You're right, he didn't explore. I don't think sex or sexuality was of any importance to him at all. Just like Alice pushed him out of the house when they were moving, Jonathan and Clare pushed him with sex.

 

Now that you mention the part where Bobby told Clare he wasn't sure he could do it, I try to remember if he cried afterwards. And more importantly: if he was so non-sexual, why did he have no problems doing things with Jonathan, but would be so unsure about doing it with Clare? I might be reading way too much into it, but now I'm thinking if he coined this with him seeing Carlton have sex with his girlfriend, and if that memory and therefore the painful memory of Carlton had something to do with his reaction.

 

What role does Erich play in the character’s lives? In what ways do you think he is a catlyst for change? Discuss the significance of death in the novel.

It was Erich who made Jonathan stand back and look at his life (I think neither Clare nor Bobby had the strength to challenge him into action)

 

Good point.

 

After the first meeting - when they all had a blast on the rooftop, Jon disappeared. One reason for this I feel, is that he did not want to be part of comfortable family and friends 'normal' relationship. When Erich was accepted as a friend by the others, Jon felt too settled and normal and he wanted to escape. That episode marked a change in the family's life - Jon left the home.

 

I agree, although I'm not sure whether it was more because he didn't want to be a part of a comfortable family, or because he was incapable of doing it. When I was reading the last two sentences of the above quote, I also had a flashback from Jonathan's past. He was uncomfortable when Alice came around to join him and Bobby, and while Alice and Bobby seemed comfortable, Jonathan obviously felt otherwise. I wonder if this was the basis for his later non-comfort in comfortable relationships.

 

Later, when Jon, Bobby and Claire were settled at their home and with their business, when Jon met Erich again, he was quite hostile towards him - probably because he made him come to terms with reality as regards illness and death. This was another milestone for Jon.

 

A great point. I think this can also be linked to your theory about Jonathan not wanting to be a part of a comfortable family. I think at this point in the story Jonathan has found a little inner peace and can now allow himself to enjoy being comfortable, and Erich's arrival and his disease is a setback to their peaceful comfortable life.

 

Perhaps the author, who lived as part of a gay family himself when it was so less accepted, wants to send out a message that a different way of life could still be a good way of life.

 

I didn't know that about the author, thanks for the info, I now want to do a little digging myself.

Edited April 20, 2011 by frankie

[frankie]

I did not form a high opinion of Claire, to be honest, but you really really seem to dislike her Frankie

 

Yes, I guess it shows I do not like her, but she is a very important and interesting character in the novel.

 

However I think I prefer Claire to Alice - Alice's character is too suffocating and controlling for me. She sucked the life out of Jon for a lot of years, and just tolerated Ned - she never had a good word to say about anyone really

 

That's interesting, Maureen; to me, Alice was someone who found life painful and was traumatised by the difficult birth and death of her twins, but carried on performing her role in life as well as she was able to manage. I was glad when she finally got the chance to enjoy life nearer the end of the novel.

Claire, on the other hand, came over to me like a spoilt child who wanted to think of herself as unconventional and different when she was really just selfish.

 

I'm not a fan of Claire either, I found her quite mean sometimes and in my mind she put Bobby and Jonathan down a lot, like they should be over the moon that she was in fact their friend.

 

On this Clare vs. Alice debate, I have to agree with Ooshie and Weave. Eventhough you guys have opened my eyes to see some of the things in Alice that I did not initially see (how dependant she was of Jonathan's company etc.), I still sympathise with her, mostly because she went through the dramatic loss of her twins. And had an unfulfilling marriage, although that was partly her own doing. I think compared to Clare, Alice seems to have potential to personal growth whereas I don't think Clare really changed or will change, and here's why:

 

for me Clare is "redeemed" with the birth of Rebecca. Her motherly instincts shine out and make her a person with a misson in life; she is no longer riding on life's bandwagon, but rather has a purpose and feels responsible for her child. Her job is to protect her daughter - I think she (Rebecca) anchors her into life, making her face her responsibilities...

 

In my opinion, Clare has a chance to redeem herself, but I don't think she fully does so. I do see her mother's instincts waking up, but I don't see them taking over in her life so much that she would extend those feelings toward others than only Rebecca. Her taking care of Erich is very mechanical and out of necessity (surely she'd get scolded by Jonathan and Bobby if she didn't take care of him during the day), not something that comes to her naturally.

 

Also, Clare's change is due to necessity: she has to start taking other people (Rebecca) into consideration if she wants to be a good mother. Her change is due to a biological change, it's not due to a personal epiphany. So in a way, I don't think she's all that much changed, down to the core.

 

I agree that Claire felt love for her daughter, but my feeling when she took Rebecca and left was that she was just doing what she herself wanted again, not what would be best for Rebecca; the bit where Claire talks about Rebecca getting old enough to realise that their lives were odd and starting to hate Claire then reinforced that for me. Claire thought about going back but didn't, even the thought that her daughter wouldn't enjoy their life didn't make her think less about what she wanted and more about what might be good for her daughter.

 

A very good point. I also think that all daughters are in the danger of starting to hate their mothers in some point of their lives, it's a rather normal thing. And Clare should not make decisions based on what Rebecca might think of her later in life, she should make the decisions based on what is best for Rebecca now. And having her cut off from two people who love her and whom she loves is cruel in my opinion. I think Rebecca (or anyone) would rather benefit from being raised in an unusual, very tolerant and unprejudiced family.

 

I never saw this at time I was reading the book, and I am not really of the opinion Bobby found Carlton in Erich. I rather think Bobby was made that way - he is the child who would pick the three - legged puppy out of a whole litter, who will befriend the only other friendless guy at school, who would carry his friend across the desert if he broke his leg, or who would give his time and energy to help anyone who is less - less fortunate, less strong, less able, less happy.

 

I, too, think that Bobby was just like that, a very caring person and would've helped anybody, and that's why he did it, but I was thinking while he was caring for Erich, he might've been thinking about his brother. I didn't see it as a conscious decision but something that might've arisen in his mind later on.

 

I always understood that Jon was 100% homosexual. He loves Claire, but in a friendly, caring sort of way - sort of like a Mum or an auntie, or a big sister. I never came across an inkling of him showing sexual interest in any female.

 

^I got that impression too Maureen, that he had no sexual interest at all in Clare, he was like a sister to her, Clare knew that they would never sleep together, but she still secretly hoped that Rebecca would be his daughter because she wanted all of his qualities to be part of her but I think if given the chance, Jonathan would have been a influence on Rebecca's life.

 

Yes, I suppose you're right. I think I might've wanted him to really love Clare and that's why I saw things where there really wasn't anything to see.

 

well said! I've been trying to put this scene into words... Clare helps Alice in her time of grief, even tho the older woman tries to push her away, Clare can feel she needs a shoulder to cry on, and she even keeps the boys away while Alice grieves.

 

I also think that without Clare knowing it at first, it was an outlet for some of her personal issues as well, but that for me doesn't take anything away from her action, it was still a very nice thing of her to do.

 

I've been really enjoying reading all your comments! This is the first time I've ever actually taken part in a reading circle and I have to say I've enjoyed every bit of it

Edited April 20, 2011 by frankie

[Weave]

I also think that without Clare knowing it at first, it was an outlet for some of her personal issues as well, but that for me doesn't take anything away from her action, it was still a very nice thing of her to do.

 

Great point Frankie, it surprised me when she showed Alice comfort because she had pretty much decided that she did not like Alice but it was definitely an outlet for her.

[Maureen]

 

You're right, he didn't explore. I don't think sex or sexuality was of any importance to him at all. Just like Alice pushed him out of the house when they were moving, Jonathan and Clare pushed him with sex.

 

Now that you mention the part where Bobby told Clare he wasn't sure he could do it, I try to remember if he cried afterwards. And more importantly: if he was so non-sexual, why did he have no problems doing things with Jonathan, but would be so unsure about doing it with Clare? I might be reading way too much into it, but now I'm thinking if he coined this with him seeing Carlton have sex with his girlfriend, and if that memory and therefore the painful memory of Carlton had something to do with his reaction.

 

 

 

Yes he did. At first he was terrified when Clare was on top of him, and she kept coaxing him until he climaxed. Then he started to cry 'He started weeping, openly and extravagantly as a baby'. Before they had sex he had told her that he did not think about other women. The only words he said after he stopped crying were 'I never. I never thought I would.' In my opinion, although Clare had her own agenda for doing this, (she wanted Jon not Bobby - earlier when he had asked her something Jon would have known the answer to instinctively, she was thinking 'Oh Jonathan. Why aren't you straight?' she was at least kind and patient with Bobby.

This also makes me think that Jon could not have sex with Clare - as she admitted to herself that her motive in having sex with Bobby was that she wanted a baby, and she wanted to raise it with Jonathan, and she saw this as the way to achieve her ambition.