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The Flying Troutmans by Mirian Toews


Guest ii

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Okay, here we go... Sorry for those who expected this already this morning. I need my beauty sleep (and last night also the blue pill that makes me see pink elephants, but that's a whole different story)...

 

IT IS ASSUMED YOU HAVE READ THIS BOOK BEFORE READING THIS THREAD, THEREFORE SPOILER TAGS MAY NOT HAVE BEEN USED IN ORDER TO FASCILITATE EASIER AND MORE OPEN DISCUSSION



The blurb from the back of the book:

Hattie, living in Paris, has just been dumped by her boyfriend when she receives a phone call from her eleven-years-old niece. Hattie's sister Min is having a particularly dark episode and Thebes asks Hattie to come and look after her and her brother Logan. By the time Hattie arrives back in Canada, Min is on her way to the psychiatric ward. Suddenly responsible for two children, she realises that she is out of her depth and hatches a plan to find their long-lost father. With only the most tenuous lead, she piles Logan and Thebes into the family van and heads south.

 

At once hilarious and heart-rending, The Flying Troutmans tells the story of a fractured family on the verge of spinning off its axles and a road trip that just might keep them together.

 

Let's start with some simple questions and see where we end up in:

1) How did you find the style Toews used?

2) How did you find Hatty? Was she a credible, authentic character? Anything in particular struck out to you? How was she in the beginning? And in the end?

3) How did the beginning (Hatty returning to her sisters family, everything there) make you feel? What thoughts did it bring up?

4) Anything else you'd like to bring up?

 

I thought we'd start of more general, and with a small focus on the beginning of the book. Do note, however, that it IS assumed that everyone has read the book already, so spoiler tags aren't needed and you are free to discuss later points as well. For example, saying "in the beginning I felt Hatty to be this-and-that, but by the time something-something happened, I felt something-else" is perfectly okay.

 

Let's focus on the kids, whom I adored, in the next questions...

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1) How did you find the style Toews used?

Initially I had a bit of a problem with how she handled dialogue. I found it very difficult to get on with the fact that she uses no quotation marks to indicate speach, but instead just leaves it all in as part of the narrative. I got used to it eventually, but it still jarred for me. I prefer my dialogue in the conventional way.

 

2) How did you find Hatty? Was she a credible, authentic character? Anything in particular struck out to you? How was she in the beginning? And in the end?

She didn't seem to have the first clue about being around young people. For someone who had supposedly been involved with her niece and nephew from early on, and only more recently disappeared to Paris, she seemed to know absolutely nothing about them or how to handle them. I know from experience that handling kids when you've no experience of them is bizarre (before becoming a Mum myself, I had no interaction with kids, or next to none, anyway), but on the occasions when left with kids, surely common sense is the best policy? Hattie seems to think nothing of running out of the motel room to look for her nephew, leaving her 11-y-o niece all alone in a strange place. Yes, she's sleeping, but look at what happens when she wakes and finds herself alone! Hattie struck me as being completely irresponsible. There are other ways of tracking people down without hauling the kids out of school to look for their father - it destroys what little stability they have left in their lives. Ripped out of familiar surroundings and routines, they are bound to go a bit haywire!

 

All in all, I never really warmed to Hattie and every time she did something stupid with regards to those kids, I wanted to smack her so hard!

 

3) How did the beginning (Hatty returning to her sisters family, everything there) make you feel? What thoughts did it bring up?

To be honest, I didn't feel she was doing it for her sister's kids - she was going home becausde her relationship wasn't working and she had nowhere else to go, which didn't make me feel she was maybe the nicest person in the world! Also, I thought she was incredibly gullible - the whole "my boyfriend is going to India" thing when it was very obvious he just wanted out of the relationship was a farce! She obviously had some inkling that something wasn't quite right though, as she called home, ostensibly just to hear the answer machine message (which is sad enough), but really it felt like she was checking up on him to make sure he'd really gone (which, of course, he hadn't).

 

4) Anything else you'd like to bring up?

I loved Thebie's randomness, but that was about it for me. Overall I found the novel a little bit of a plod most of the time. Hattie's total lack of common sense really irked me (I mean, really, letting Thebie wear clothes till they're practically falling apart and not even making sure she's clean - honestly, that's neglect!), and I think a far more interesting story could have been made of how Hattie coped with the kids at home, with the problems they were facing there, rather than taking them on a "voyage of discovery" that repeatedly showed just how stupid Hattie was.

 

I would have preferred if Hattie just used her brain occasionally (picking up strangers when you're driving kids around? STUPID!!!!). Yes, have them look for their father but not by just jumping in the van and randomly driving to where they think he might be!

 

I did enjoy parts of the book - mostly with Thebie, who I thought a fun and fascinating character (a little girl who has been forced to play grown up while her Mum falls apart and her brother goes off the rails till Hattie arrives and she can revert to being a child again), but could have done without Hattie all together.

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Wow, Kell. That's really a strong reaction! I'm impressed, as it's rare I've come across a book that made me feel so strongly. And of course a little bit shell-shocked, as practically everything you said is the opposite for me. Well, apart from the "loved Thebes and her randomness", 'cause I did love her, and she was, by far, my favourite character.

 

I do understand Hattie's attitudes towards the kids, and her "yanking them off school" and all. Obviously whatever was going on wasn't working. Besides, she was panicking; her sister was asking for her permission to kill herself, she was suddenly faced with this enormous responsibility of caring for two very troubled kids... It was overwhelming to her.

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So. The long awaited circle is here and I have to confess I haven't finished the book :) In fact, after loving the beginning I just dropped it and haven't been able to pick it up since... I wasn't feeling too good and what had seemed like the most suprisingly perfect blend of funny, sad and sweet suddenly seemed just too sad.

 

I did love the beggining though, and like I mentionned previously was very started by the way in which Toews managed to make me laugh at things, think "oh, that's a great quote, I need to remember it!" and then do a double take when I remembered just how sad the subject matter really was.

 

Ad of course, gotta love random Thebes! Logan too, though he's more difficult to put a finger on.

 

I promise I'll try and get back in this book... would be a shame to spoil it for myself by not finishing it.

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Aww, guys, I was counting on you. Especially now that Kell hated it. *laughs* No no, it's all perfectly understandable. I hope things calm down for you. (haha, I know, they probably won't. I know my schedule won't.)

 

I need to browse through it, as I read it rather early in November, to get the smaller details recalled again.

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But maybe the journey can be thought of as a symbol for them finding themselves and each other? So maybe it's not so much about the geocraphical travel, but the one they need to make as people to grow into who they're supposed to be? Maybe they're not searching the kids' dad so much as themselves?

 

Which could not have been done had they stayed at home, no?

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It could be thought of that way (and I'm sure that's the way it was meant), but it just seemed like a catalogue of Hattie screwing up to me and most of it seemed very superficial - there was no deep discussion of the problems the kids were facing and Hattie seemed to be in complete denial about the demise of her own relationship with Marc (and her relationship with Min too, really).

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I was thinking of "saving" Hattie and Min's relationship till later, because it's just a complicated issue. So I won't get into that now.

 

You keep pointing out Hatties mistakes. Aren't they mostly just human? I mean, yes, leaving a 11-year-old in a motel room alone is bad, but so is having a teenager wondering around a strange town in the middle of the night. Hattie was doing the best she could under a very complex situation. What would you have done? Left Logan wondering around?

 

I appreciate the difficult situation Hattie's in in relation to the kids. It's clear from the book that when Min's been okay, she's been a great mom. So Hattie's been left with the role of the cool aunt, the friend of the kids. So when she's suddenly supposed to be the parent, she realises she doesn't really have a leg to stand on when it comes to authority. She needs to find some other way of interacting with the kinds than the "because I tell you to" line.

 

The one thing that's very much Toews' style, is that the characters in her books are always far from perfect, in a very human way. Their faults aren't obvious, they don't revel in them, but they are human after all. They make mistakes, they feel emotions and they hurt. They aren't always rational (in A Boy of Good Breading the guy was convinced that the Prime Minister of Canada is his dad, and thus was absolutely obsessed with keeping their town at the very limit of the town limit, as the PM had promised to visit the smallest town in Canada on Canada Day. Not exactly rational, but very human.) but they are usually understandable.

 

Okay, here's one for all of you again:

What do you think the "flying" refers to in the title? Why are they the Flying Troutmans?

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It's her total lack of common sense that irks me. I would not have left an 11-y-o alone in a strange place (or even at home alone, to be honest). When Logan went AWOL, I would have called the police. But then, I wouldn't have taken them on the unwarranted trip in the first place. I guess I'm just far to sensible! :)

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Called the police? When you're in the country under false pretence, with kids that aren't yours, their mother in a mental ward and with child services on your back over back home? They would have changed her with kidnapping!

 

Hatty was thrown into a difficult situation out of the blue, and she did what she thought was best for them all.

 

As for leaving a 11-year-old all alone, especially at home? Phlese! An 11-year-old is perfectly capable of spending a few hours on their own, as long as they have rules and easy access to help. Besides, Thebes had already shown herself to be mature for her age (albeit she shouldn't have had to! That's obvious.) and Hatty left a note saying she'll be right back. There's taking care of the kids and then there's smothering.

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So you'd disappear in the middle of the night and leave an 11-y-o girl all alone? I'd say that was highly irresponsible - that's why parents of 11-y-o girls get someone to babysit when they go out at night. But then, everything Hattie does (starting with taking the kids out of the country!) is irresponsible. Yes, Thebes has shown herself to be mature at times, but she's also shown herself to be very immature for her age (the not washing or changing her clothes - that's something a 5 or 6 y-o might do!). She's also shown herself to be quite unstable, so leaving her alone at that point was an incredibly irresponsible thing to do.

 

Yes, there are some 11-y-o's who are responsible enough to be left alone for a very short while, but as is proven on Hattie's return, Thebes is not one of them.

Edited by Kell
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Personally, I don't know what I'd do. I'd probably try to pick the less bad of two very bad options. Which is, in my view, what Hattie did.

 

Anyways, anyone else read the book yet? Kylie? Fi? Katrina?

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*laughs* It's a quick read, Nollaig, I'm sure you'll be able to catch up with us.

 

And that's just one aspect of the story! We haven't even gotten into the whole "husband leaving wife with mental illness" bit, for example.

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Despite me not thinking much of Hattie, it is quite an interesting read and it's a surprisingly quick read, so if anyone is worrying that it might be a bit much, do give it a go as it's worth a look and doesn't take long to finish, so you can all jump in the discussion. :)

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I totally forgot about this thread. That was my whole purpose behind reading the book and then I just forget

 

1) How did you find the style Toews used?

I found it a bit lacking. She seemed to go off on tangents that seemed irrelevant to the story as a whole, like the waitress in Arizona. I also thought the majority of the characters were unbelievable as a whole. I mean, how many people can go find their dad in the desert and it's one big happy reunion? She also just kind of left Min hanging in the hospital when to me the premises of the book was her developing relationship with Min.

 

2) How did you find Hatty? Was she a credible, authentic character? Anything in particular struck out to you? How was she in the beginning? And in the end?

Hatty seemed quite naive for an adult, even one who had little experience with children. While I understood her way of connecting with the kids there still should have been some normalcy in the relationship. Allowing a teenager to deface your van and allowing a preteen to not bathe or change clothes is just a bit to unrealistic to me. This killed a bit of her credibility for me.

 

I am also confused that Hatty felt it was acceptable to leave Logan, in the dessert, with a father that he hadn't seen in years. All without conferring with the boys mom. That seemed extremely selfish to me. Hatty obviously didn't want the conflict from Logan if she didn't let him stay but if she is so concerned with Min's welfare shouldn't she have at least checked with Min to see if this was an ok arrangement? Who knows where Logan will end up and how Min will react to him being gone. After all, she did throw their father out and refuse contact with him for a reason.

 

3) How did the beginning (Hatty returning to her sisters family, everything there) make you feel? What thoughts did it bring up?

Well, at first it made sense, things were falling apart for Hatty a bit in Paris and it seemed like she was enjoying the idea of stepping in to 'save her sister again'. She probably needed the esteem boost after things went south with Marc. However, the fact that she didn't appear to 'grow' from her experience at all made me a bit doubtful of her. After spending so long with the kids in such close proximity you would have thought she would have smartened up a bit.

 

4) Anything else you'd like to bring up?

All in all I liked most of the book but I didn't veiw it as a growing experience for Hatty or the kiddos which is what I thought would happen. I loved the characters Logan and Thebes and found both of them delightful for the most part, they sure where eccentric and damaged which I can relate to.

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Sorry, I've been busy. And waiting for the few others to catch up (hint, hint)... *laughs*

 

Few more questions to ponder:

 

a) What was Hattie and Min's relationship like?

:D What about the other sibling pair, Logan and Thebes?

c) Why is it important that Hattie and Min's dad was dead, or was it? What about the events surrounding his death? Why do you think Toews went with that line of story?

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1) How did you find the style Toews used?

 

To be honest, I didn't really like it. Like Kell said, I missed speech marks - proper punctuation can go a long way in my opinion. I have A Complicated Kindness on my shelf, and I remember that I put it down for that reason. However, I may pick it up again as I did get used to it.

 

I found she jumped around a lot - and some of it was just randomness. She remembered odd things which I didn't find relevant, and she added in things that just seemed out of place - like Adam the junkie.

 

2) How did you find Hatty? Was she a credible, authentic character? Anything in particular struck out to you? How was she in the beginning? And in the end?

 

Erm, I felt sorry for her - getting dumped, having to struggle with having Min as a sister, and arriving when Min was going into hospital. I didn't think she made wise choices however. She seemed to lack control. The kids are messed up, and she just left them like that. Why couldn't she make Thebes wash for example. And at the end when she leaves Logan with his Dad - is that her decision to make? I also found her a bit self-absorbed. It seemed like she found their journey such a hardship - she kept thinking about how she could be in Paris. I felt I wanted to tell her to shut up because she made the decision to take a road trip.

 

3) How did the beginning (Hatty returning to her sisters family, everything there) make you feel? What thoughts did it bring up?

 

I was pleased she returned to them, but were her motives self-less? I don't think so. She had just been dumped, what was left for her in Paris? She ran away to Paris, and that is not usually a solution, you have to face up to life, and I think that was she was doing.

 

I found her decision for a road trip reckless. And not telling the schools what was going on. I felt she could have had help, but was too focussed on herself to get it.

 

4) What do you think the "flying" refers to in the title? Why are they the Flying Troutmans?

 

Could it be as simple as the road trip? Or could it be that they are all away with the fairies. All of them seem absorbed in their own tangles, yet all connected through Min. Flying could be escapism - they all seem to want to escape the life they are living.

 

5) What was Hattie and Min's relationship like?

 

Not good in my opinion. Min was unstable, leaving Hattie to fear for her life, Min's life, and what is going to happen. Min was not a good older sister, but her problem was Hattie. I didn't really get why she was the problem, but I felt that even what Min was well, her heart wasn't in looking after Hattie. She no longer had attention so acted out I guess and that affected Hattie in a bad way.

 

6) What about the other sibling pair, Logan and Thebes?

 

I think their relationship is opposite to Min and Hattie. Although they fought and both were struggling with demons left by their Mum but they looked out for each other. I felt Logan was scared of pushing Thebes over the edge. When he disappeared and left her in a state he did anything to get her happy again - I think that fear was underlying in their relationship, but that had a good outcome, it made them close and look out for each other.

7) Why is it important that Hattie and Min's dad was dead, or was it? What about the events surrounding his death? Why do you think Toews went with that line of story?

 

Their Dad was an anchor I think, always looking out for them - for example when Min jumped off the pier and he jumped in after her. I think that not having him around affected the girls, Min especially as it meant she could go off the rails more. And also he wasn't the one who was suppose to die - Hattie was. That could lead to more resentment and extreme behaviour in Min. We also read about Hattie and her swimming coach - she acted out too and having her father around might have prevented that.

 

8) Anything else you'd like to bring up?

 

Like the others, I liked Thebes randomness too. I thought it fitted nicely into the story as there were many random parts and episodes in the book.

 

I thought it was very quick to read, and it wasn't a difficult read once I got used to the lack of punctuation.

 

I thought she left the story open though. We don't know what happened to Min; we never find out why Thebes wished she hadn't been born or how bad the self-harming was. I found the book inconclusive really.

 

I would probably rate this book as 7/10 - not really bad but not amazing either.

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a) What was Hattie and Min's relationship like?

Talk about extreme sibling rivalry! From Hattie's accounts, Min was "normal" till Hattie was born, but we only really have Hattie's say-so on that. Min obviously had problems before that to have reacted in thte extreme way she did. I think that even if she'd remained an only child there would have been problems. Personally, I thought Min should have had a LOT of attention from mental health practitioners from very early on, not just as an adult. I mean, honestly, she tried to kill her sister and it resulted in the death of their father! If that doesn't SCREAM psychotic I don't know what does!

 

:D What about the other sibling pair, Logan and Thebes?

Despite their family problems, Logan and Thebes have what seems to be a far more "normal" relationship - they bicker and niggle at each other but they basically do care about each other. In some ways I'm amazed they have such a good relationship as their family is so messed up, but in other ways I'm not surprised at all as all they really have is each other!

 

c) Why is it important that Hattie and Min's dad was dead, or was it? What about the events surrounding his death? Why do you think Toews went with that line of story?

THe lack of father figure obviously affected both the sisters and possibly affected their future relationships with men. Girls often idolise their fathers, moreso when their father dies when they're young as they don't have a constant reminder of how their father actually was, just a rose-tinted memory. If their future relationships don't measure up to the ideal then they're tainted and don't work out. Both sisters are currently single - Min because she's a basket case and drove her other half away, and Hattie, well I'm not sure what exactly when wrong with Marc, but she's incredibly naive when it comes to men and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if she just really got on his nerves a whole lot - she certainly got on mine! I've no idea why Toews went with that story other than to perhaps give a hint as to why they both have such messed uo relationships with men.

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OK.

 

First thoughts, and this isn't really responding to ii's questions, just thoughts in general. I'll get to specific questions in a bit.

 

- What a very, very, very female book. This isn't a criticism, but I think I'll be one of very few men reading it this December. All the main characters, bar logan, are women/girls. The men are mostly freaks and losers and ciphers and shallow. Again, that's no criticism, but a contrast with all those books where there are few women and they're only shallow. But also the focus and interests of the book were very unmacho. It's a bit of a change for me to read a book like that.

 

- WHERE DID THE MONEY COME FROM? Now, this is just a silly point about plot, but unless I skimmed over it, they never said, and it was bugging me. Family on holiday in Mexico, this is us somewhere else, Min never worked, Hattie tootled off to Paris on a whim, also without a job just idealism, can fly back at a moments notice, has a wodge of cash for the drive, can fly home from San Diego. Min can start random artsy projects and just fall out of them. It just felt like a very false set up to make for nice "quirky", "alternative" sorts of characters. Perhaps there was a huge life insurance pay-out for their dad, or something, but the fact it's never explained or mentioned feels like it leaves a bit of a gap.

 

- In contrast to Kell, I find Hattie completely plausible as a bit of an airheaded, idealistic, but completely unsettled and immature young aunt. Her uselessness at parenting and her struggle to work out what to do, to work out how much she can boss around and how much she has to let slide and how much she can shout, seems very likely to how I'd be - particularly if she'd not been home for ages from Paris and was slightly out of touch with the kids. That just seems, well, normal. I know I'd be far more useless. Funnily, I found Thebes the least plausible character, and she felt like a bit of a fake invention - almost too obvious as the super-independent, intelligent, slightly gothy, slightly quirky, remarkably level-headed 12 year old. It just felt like Toews had thought "What kind of character would people like most in the world?", and came up with someone halfway between the girls in Juno and Little Miss Sunshine. Ooh, perfect, modern alternative young characters.

 

- The book itself? I enjoyed it, but it was pretty light. Perhaps if I wasn't working so hard, and was thinking more, I'd have focussed more on the parallels between the self-discovery voyage and the real voyage. But I think it's meant to be light, the stuff about depression and loss and coping in impossible situations is background that you sort of absorb, rather than having spelled out to you by someone with a sledgehammer approach.

 

- Road-trips? They've very North American, aren't they? It seems almost entirely normal to get up and drive for a few thousand miles when you're in North America. It takes a lot more thought and planning in Europe.

 

That's it for the time being.

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