The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle by Haruki Murakami

[lexiepiper]

And the way that Kumiko reacted to the toilet paper/peppers, is a sign of their marriage beginning to go to wrong, even though Toru has no clue

 

I think so too, how he was so completely oblivious to the fact she was sleeping with other men is beyond me, as it was very obvious to the reader from page 1, but then again, I do think that's the point, that he just is oblivious to everything, and really he doesn't even think to find out anything about his wife until she disappears.

 

So, a couple more questions for you:

 

(1) What do you think of the role of water in the book? Is there a direct link between the flow of Toru's life and the flow of water, or is it all, actually, metaphorical?

 

(2) (and this is really, just based on ideas of mine) Rather than the more obvious links to something like Alice in Wonderland and similar fantasy type books, do you also see a common thread with modern science fiction, Matrix-style or cyberpunk stuff, where, rather than using "technology" to get sucked into the computer matrix, the linkage is made through a form of eastern mysticism?

 

I think water plays a massive role, as it crops up quite a few times during various stories, and it's something Toru always thinks about due to the preminition thing that he was told many years earlier. Also, because of the well that was dry for all that time, but then started to fill with water almost killing Toru when he saves Kumiko from the spirit place. The fact that Toru thinks that what happened in the spirit place and the well refilling with water breaking the curse for that piece of land is also important, implying that it was the dry well that was the bad luck?

 

I really enjoyed the mysticism aspect of the story, and it was something that made it stand apart from 'western' books, even though there were losts of western aspects, the spirit type things are very rarely written about in a fictional format here, where as I gather it's a pretty big thing in Japan, which is really interesting to read about and it was certainly refreshing to not be reading about modern technology (other than the few small computer bits).

 

Generally, I loved the book, and found it completely different to anything I've ever read before. I loved all of the crazy weird characters, in particular I really liked May, Creta and Cinnamon. Did anyone else have any favourites?

[Weave]

I am so glad you enjoy it Lexie

[lexiepiper]

From Wikipedia:

 

Two chapters from the third volume of the original three-volume Japanese paperback edition were not included in the English translation. In addition, one of the chapters near the excluded two was moved ahead of another chapter, taking it out of the context of the original order.

 

The two missing chapters elaborate on the relationship between Toru Okada and Creta Kano, and a "hearing" of the wind-up bird as Toru burns a box of Kumiko's belongings.

 

 

That's a shame they've done that, I would have liked to read more about Creta and Toru.

[Freewheeling Andy]

I really enjoyed the mysticism aspect of the story, and it was something that made it stand apart from 'western' books, even though there were losts of western aspects, the spirit type things are very rarely written about in a fictional format here, where as I gather it's a pretty big thing in Japan, which is really interesting to read about and it was certainly refreshing to not be reading about modern technology (other than the few small computer bits).

 

That's one of the reasons I asked the question, really. I love the way that Murakami uses a non-computery, non-false-techy, way of exploring some of the same ideas of people being dragged into/out of parallel worlds, that some modern SF does.

[Lucybird]

From Wikipedia:

 

Two chapters from the third volume of the original three-volume Japanese paperback edition were not included in the English translation. In addition, one of the chapters near the excluded two was moved ahead of another chapter, taking it out of the context of the original order.

 

The two missing chapters elaborate on the relationship between Toru Okada and Creta Kano, and a "hearing" of the wind-up bird as Toru burns a box of Kumiko's belongings.

 

 

That's a shame they've done that, I would have liked to read more about Creta and Toru.

 

I would have liked that too, I wonder why they took them out?

[lexiepiper]

I don't have a clue, seems really random doesn't it? I was trying to find the missing chapters online earlier, but it doesn't seem like anyone's translated them, or atleast I couldn't find them if they did

[Freewheeling Andy]

So - another question:

 

May Kasahara doesn't really seem to be linked to anyone else in the story, for most of the book. She isn't part of the loop of Toru, Kumiko, Honda, Mamiya, Noboru, Creta, Cinnamon, Nutmeg, etc.

 

So what's her role? Is she, in fact, channeling Kumiko, as she seems to imply in one of her letters? And is that channeling of Kumiko linked to the fact that she hears Toru's cry for help and somehow saves him?

 

And is the separation she feels from her shadow towards the end, the splitting of "May Kasahara" and "Kumiko"?

[Freewheeling Andy]

Oh, and one other thing:

 

What is the importance of Lieutenant Mamiya telling the story of Boris the Manskinner? It seems almost completely redundant in the context of the book, to me, although interesting in its own right. Unless Murakami is deliberately "bookending" the war, pointing out, the same as with the pre-European-WWII war stuff, it was also continuing in some form after we in Europe considered it to have ended?

[Weave]

Oh, and one other thing:

 

What is the importance of Lieutenant Mamiya telling the story of Boris the Manskinner? It seems almost completely redundant in the context of the book, to me, although interesting in its own right. Unless Murakami is deliberately "bookending" the war, pointing out, the same as with the pre-European-WWII war stuff, it was also continuing in some form after we in Europe considered it to have ended?

 

I think Haruki Murakami is exploring aspects of the war which westerners may not be aware of, as you rightly say Andy, the war did not just end, it continued in so many aspects for a lot of people. I think Lieutenant Mamiya's story shows how much happened and how much was actually hidden from the western world, I could be wrong, but I felt that so much being hidden was in a way, Japan not seeing any sign of weakness.

[Weave]

I will add more once I have finished reading

[Kell]

I'm afraid I'm struggling somewhat with the seeming randomness of everything. Nothing seems remotely connected and therefore I'm not seeing any point to it all right now. Therefore, I'm afraid I'm going to put it down for the time being, but I thin kit'll be one I come back to at a later date as the intrigue of whether or not everything comes together coherantly at some point will probably nag at me ill I do!

[Weave]

I'm afraid I'm struggling somewhat with the seeming randomness of everything. Nothing seems remotely connected and therefore I'm not seeing any point to it all right now. Therefore, I'm afraid I'm going to put it down for the time being, but I thin kit'll be one I come back to at a later date as the intrigue of whether or not everything comes together coherantly at some point will probably nag at me ill I do!

 

I hope you go back to it Kell

 

I am almost finished and I have enjoyed it more this time around

Edited November 17, 2009 by Kell
merged posts

[Freewheeling Andy]

I'm afraid I'm struggling somewhat with the seeming randomness of everything. Nothing seems remotely connected and therefore I'm not seeing any point to it all right now. Therefore, I'm afraid I'm going to put it down for the time being, but I thin kit'll be one I come back to at a later date as the intrigue of whether or not everything comes together coherantly at some point will probably nag at me ill I do!

 

It certainly seems random at times, but I think that's one of the things I like about it - the way the randomness begins to coalesce, and then flies apart, then begins to coalesce, but without reaching an ultimate conclusion or explanation.

 

But I can see how that would not be great for everyone. I will say that much though I love it, I'm always surprised at how widely popular Murakami is. The japanese-ness, the dissonance, the way the plots often seem to go nowhere (the title of A Wild Sheep Chase being very relevent in this case) is not really the material that would normally bring such a wide audience.

 

There's no way that not wanting to finish a Murakami book is any reflection on the reader, I think. It feels like it must appeal to a fairly niche taste.

[Freewheeling Andy]

Oh, and I too, I think, enjoyed it more second time around. It may be because I've been thinking through the connections and behaviour for this reading circle, but it might also be because I've been better at following the clues.

[Weave]

It certainly seems random at times, but I think that's one of the things I like about it - the way the randomness begins to coalesce, and then flies apart, then begins to coalesce, but without reaching an ultimate conclusion or explanation.

 

But I can see how that would not be great for everyone. I will say that much though I love it, I'm always surprised at how widely popular Murakami is. The japanese-ness, the dissonance, the way the plots often seem to go nowhere (the title of A Wild Sheep Chase being very relevent in this case) is not really the material that would normally bring such a wide audience.

 

There's no way that not wanting to finish a Murakami book is any reflection on the reader, I think. It feels like it must appeal to a fairly niche taste.

 

I think Haruki Murakami is so popular because of his characters, they are normal people doing their thing while all of these amazing situations are happening

[sirinrob]

i did say I was going to join in this month. So to say I cant bring myself to read the LAST 100 pages. I dont care what happens to any of the characters - to me its an overwrought ego trip.

[Freewheeling Andy]

As I was saying to Kell, I think Murakami's very much one of those authors who's not going to be universal in appeal, and some people will just not enjoy his books. There's a lot that I really like, but which - if I try and look dispassionately - I can see that others will just dislike. The coldness of the prose, mixed with the characters who seem to be just a bit apathetic, to let the world wash them, rather than engage with it, the weird use of sex, the way that the story/ies seem to be completely unconclusive and not completely tie together. It's one of the reasons I'm continually surprised by his popularity - it's very unpopulist fiction.

[Weave]

I finished 'The Wind Up Bird Chronicle' by Haruki Murakami, this is my second time reading it and I enjoyed it more this time around.

 

I have been a fan of Haruki Murakami since 'Kafka on the shore', his books to me are nothing short of excellence, I wish I could give you on specific reason but I can't, I like his style of writing, I like how his characters are random, flawed. yes the majority of them are selfish but who isn't selfish?

 

I like how he presents Japan in a modern way whilst sharing Japan's vast history.

 

I plan to answer the question asap

 

Great choice Andy

[Weave]

Here goes ~

 

What did you think of Toru Okada? Did his passivity, and acceptance, bother you?

 

~ I liked Toru Okada but at points his passivity and acceptance did bother me, I felt like he needed a good shake but at the same time, I could understand his passivity and acceptance because sometimes it easier not to face a problem and just accept it, and that is what Toru does, he is aware but accepts it, which is a pity because I think if he had tried harder maybe Kumiko would not have left him.

 

Are you content or frustrated by the way the book concludes, leaving so many loose ends and so much to your own imagination?

 

~ Yes, very contented, it is one of the main reasons why I enjoy Haruki Murakami’s work so much, the fact that he leaves loose ends, you make your own mind up, which is refreshing, you are deciding as the reader, the fate of the character.

 

What is your opinion of the interplay between the mystical/magical, and the mundane, in this book?

 

~ It works well because there are parallel between the two, you have the passive Toru and the extraordinary Kano sisters/Nutmeg and Cinnamon Akasaka who become part his life and change it in so many ways but Toru remains the same, he has the same outlook, it’s only until later in the book that he is begins to change.

 

What do you think of the role of water in the book? Is there a direct link between the flow of Toru's life and the flow of water, or is it all, actually, metaphorical?

 

~ It’s a metaphorical link at first, Mr Honda warning about the flow, what may happen to Toru but as the story progresses there is a direct link to water because of Lieutenant Mamiya and Mr Honda’s stories, and also how the changes in Toru’s life have stop the flow until the well fills up again.

 

Rather than the more obvious links to something like Alice in Wonderland and similar fantasy type books, do you also see a common thread with modern science fiction, Matrix-style or cyberpunk stuff, where, rather than using "technology" to get sucked into the computer matrix, the linkage is made through a form of eastern mysticism?

 

~ I will answer this the best way I can, there is a common thread with modern science fiction, the fact that at one point Toru is walking through the well wall, there is something mysticism about it and for me, its stems from the Kano sisters, they have left a mark on Toru, despite his passivity, I think in some respects his minds open to possibilities, thanks to the sisters.

 

May Kasahara doesn't really seem to be linked to anyone else in the story, for most of the book. She isn't part of the loop of Toru, Kumiko, Honda, Mamiya, Noboru, Creta, Cinnamon, Nutmeg, etc.

 

So what's her role? Is she, in fact, channeling Kumiko, as she seems to imply in one of her letters? And is that channeling of Kumiko linked to the fact that she hears Toru's cry for help and somehow saves him?

I think May Kasahara represents Kumiko in a small way, they are both crying out for help, Toru can answer May’s call but he can’t answer Kumiko’s call, so by helping May, he compensates for being unable to help Kumiko. May feels the same connection to Toru, she sees Toru as someone who needs to be safe (as Toru wants to save her and Kumiko), May feels guilty because she could not save the boy on the motorbike, maybe she can save Toru, that is why she hears his cry.

 

And is the separation she feels from her shadow towards the end, the splitting of "May Kasahara" and "Kumiko"?

 

I think her shadow splitting is the part of May Kasahara which was lost after her accident, she needed to step away from that part of her life.

 

What is the importance of Lieutenant Mamiya telling the story of Boris the Manskinner? It seems almost completely redundant in the context of the book, to me, although interesting in its own right. Unless Murakami is deliberately "bookending" the war, pointing out, the same as with the pre-European-WWII war stuff, it was also continuing in some form after we in Europe considered it to have ended?

 

I think Lieutenant Mamiya’s story is very important, Haruki Murakami is highlighting all aspects of the world, I don’t see it as redundant because it showed how all history is never clear (if that makes sense), and also one aspect of the war is the story of Nutmeg Akasaka’s father (the nameless vet), with the mark on his face, which eventually Toru shares.

[Jay Landsman]

Murakami is a novelist who really intrigues me, and I have Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the Road on my Amazon wish-list.

 

Is it a good novel, or should I start off with something else?

Edited November 22, 2009 by Jay Landsman

[Weave]

Murakami is a novelist that really intrigues me, and I have Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the Road on my Amazon wish-list.

 

Is it a good novel, or should I start off with something else?

 

I haven't read 'Hard~Boiled Wonderland...' yet, I have it on my tbr, personally I would start with 'A Wild Sheep Cheese' or 'Kafka on the shore'

[Freewheeling Andy]

Hard Boiled Wonderland is on my shelf. Many of the Murakami readers I know consider it his best, so I'd say that it's a good place to start. Otherwise I'd start with A Wild Sheep Chase, which I love, and isn't too long...

 

And interesting thoughts, Weave. Particularly on the May/Kumiko/Toru thing, about him wanting to make them safe, and them wanting to make him safe; so him using May as a substitute for Kumiko, rather than May actually, in some ways, being Kumiko.

[Peahen]

What did you think of Toru Okada? Did his passivity, and acceptance, bother you?

 

I seem to accept this as a trait of the most successful of Marukami's protagonists.  Their passivity and acceptance are crucial to the story as it enables them to become channels to these new experiences that they would otherwise miss out upon.  It is a statement more on how the power of the universe conspires to ensure that there is movement at all times. 

 

Are you content or frustrated by the way the book concludes, leaving so many loose ends and so much to your own imagination?

 

I don't find them to be loose ends more life.  That is the realism mixing with the mystical in a way, we cannot account for an ending, there is no such thing as an ending or tight fitting ending.  He realises why his wife left him, that is a sense of tying things up. 

 

What is your opinion of the interplay between the mystical/magical, and the mundane, in this book?

 

It is part of the reason I love Marukami.  Prior to IQ84, I would not have been so keen on this within a book, but it adds this dimension to the narrative that lends a greater sense of movement in the narrative.  You want to read as you simply do not know what can or will happen, as the boundaries are not defined as in other genres. 

[Peahen]

I finished 'The Wind Up Bird Chronicle' by Haruki Murakami, this is my second time reading it and I enjoyed it more this time around.

 

I have been a fan of Haruki Murakami since 'Kafka on the shore', his books to me are nothing short of excellence, I wish I could give you on specific reason but I can't, I like his style of writing, I like how his characters are random, flawed. yes the majority of them are selfish but who isn't selfish?

 

I like how he presents Japan in a modern way whilst sharing Japan's vast history.

 

I plan to answer the question asap

 

Great choice Andy

  I agree completely with this, i enjoy his work also as of the randomness and the flaw of his characters.