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George R.R Martin


s.gal83

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I don't think it's as black and white as that. The actions may be wrong for us, but for the character they may be the right thing to do - the GoT world is so brutal, I don't think anyone would survive for very long if they acted the way we do in reality. Given the circumstances, and her position both in power and as a woman, I think Cersei has done what was needed for her and her family to survive. She's done some brutal things, but I don't think that makes her a bad person.

 

Even in a brutal world there are people who manage without resorting to brutality themselves. This has been true throughout even our own brutal periods. There are those who choose to act with violence and brutality citing the same validation you give as being the reason for their actions and those who do not. I would argue such people are found where-ever and when-ever circumstances give them 'permission' to act violently and often even when they do not. If there were no people who felt that they were justified in acting out their rage at the world in violent action we would have no war, no murders, no riots, no terrorism, no violent protests, no child abuse, no rape, no violence against women ... aah I can't wait .... (yes I am the eternal optimist).

Edited by CuriousGeorgette
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Even in a brutal world there are people who manage without resorting to brutality themselves. This has been true throughout even our own brutal periods. There are those who choose to act with violence and brutality citing the same validation you give as being the reason for their actions and those who do not. I would argue such people are found where-ever and when-ever circumstances give them 'permission' to act violently and often even when they do not. If there were no people who felt that they were justified in acting out their rage at the world in violent action we would have no war, no murders, no riots, no terrorism, no violent protests, no child abuse, no rape, no violence against women ... aah I can't wait .... (yes I am the eternal optimist).

I agree there will always be people who can live in a brutal world while holding onto their moral values.. but I think most people need to adapt to their environment. No one is perfect, and when it comes to people we love, I think many people will do things they would never dream of doing otherwise to protect them. The circumstances someone is in can have a huge impact on their behaviour - no one is courageous or moral all of the time. Also, morals change. Some of the things Cersei did may have been acceptable in the society she lived in.

 

I can see you're an optimist, just as you can probably tell that I'm pretty pessimistic. I'm not sure if I can agree with your final point, I think there are many factors that lead to the sorts of things you mentioned. In some societies these things are acceptable to do.. such as women seen as being inferior to men etc.

 

I think what I'm trying to get across is that I can see where Cersei is coming from. I can't say I agree with all of her actions, but love, money and power can make you do stupid things, and we are all flawed.

Edited by Angury
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I agree there will always be people who can live in a brutal world while holding onto their moral values.. but I think most people need to adapt to their environment. No one is perfect, and when it comes to people we love, I think many people will do things they would never dream of doing otherwise to protect them. The circumstances someone is in can have a huge impact on their behaviour - no one is courageous or moral all of the time. Also, morals change. Some of the things Cersei did may have been acceptable in the society she lived in.

 

I can see you're an optimist, just as you can probably tell that I'm pretty pessimistic. I'm not sure if I can agree with your final point, I think there are many factors that lead to the sorts of things you mentioned. In some societies these things are acceptable to do.. such as women seen as being inferior to men etc.

 

I think what I'm trying to get across is that I can see where Cersei is coming from. I can't say I agree with all of her actions, but love, money and power can make you do stupid things, and we are all flawed.

 

 

Then we are back where we started - I agree with you that we can understand WHY some one does something, but regardless of context, society, etc some things are wrong, will remain wrong and should always be forever and amen wrong regardless of how much we can follow the twisted logic society, morals, pressures of the moments, etc that lead to a person doing bad stuff. However if you are victim of aforementioned bad stuff - truly you don't care how bad the person's childhood was, how much he/she thought they needed to do this to advance themselves, protect themselves, or whatever, you are still maimed, injured, damaged, hurt or dead, making the action wrong. In addition to being an optimist I'm also a firm believer in personal choice and accountability. I believe there is always a choice, that there are no moments ever in which there is no choice whatsoever - you may not like the consequences of all the other options making you feel like there is no choice, but there are nonetheless always options. Even in a life and death decision there is still a choice - you can choose your death, or even the death of others to avoid doing a wrong thing or giving in to a tyrant, or giving up things you don't want to give up. A horrible choice, but a choice is still a choice however horrible. And for every choice any one makes there are consequences. 

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Then we are back where we started - I agree with you that we can understand WHY some one does something, but regardless of context, society, etc some things are wrong, will remain wrong and should always be forever and amen wrong regardless of how much we can follow the twisted logic society, morals, pressures of the moments, etc that lead to a person doing bad stuff. However if you are victim of aforementioned bad stuff - truly you don't care how bad the person's childhood was, how much he/she thought they needed to do this to advance themselves, protect themselves, or whatever, you are still maimed, injured, damaged, hurt or dead, making the action wrong. In addition to being an optimist I'm also a firm believer in personal choice and accountability. I believe there is always a choice, that there are no moments ever in which there is no choice whatsoever - you may not like the consequences of all the other options making you feel like there is no choice, but there are nonetheless always options. Even in a life and death decision there is still a choice - you can choose your death, or even the death of others to avoid doing a wrong thing or giving in to a tyrant, or giving up things you don't want to give up. A horrible choice, but a choice is still a choice however horrible. And for every choice any one makes there are consequences.

 

I think what is wrong or right depends on the context, the time and the place. Homosexuality was considered "wrong" and was illegal in the UK, but now is legal, and indeed homophobia is now considered to be "wrong." Incest is currently thought of as being wrong, but I'd like to hope that changes in the next few decades.

Bringing that back to GoT, there are some things which would probably be considered to be "right" in the GoT world - such as executions and beheadings, but would be entirely wrong in the Western World. In fact, in some countries in the real world, executions are still considered "right." Right and wrong is a manmade concept which changes over time.

I currently thing execution is wrong, but if something ever happened to one of my family members, I would probably back the execution of the person who committed the said crime against my family, and to me that execution would seem right in my eyes.

 

I also don't think there is always a choice - some people have more knowledge and experience than others, and therefore will have more choices available to them (not to mention the fact that money and power can open up a lot of choices as well). Sometimes it may appear that a person has a choice, and to us as the reader it may seem obvious what the "right" choice is, but that may not be the case for the character - they have a different background, different motives and a different perspective. You used the example of a life and death decision - I think death is quite an easy choice to make. A harder choice would be either to do something or see your family suffer. Some people may not see a choice in there at all, because they could never do anything to hurt their family - I don't think I would see myself as having a choice in that situation. To an outsider it may seem obvious that there is a clear choice, but it's the perspective of the person affected that matters.

I believe everyone has a limit, and will do something they would never have dreamed of because they feel trapped and don't think they have a choice.

 

Have you read about Milgram's experiment or ZImbardo's experiment? (this isn't related to GoT :P) They're interesting experiments that show how people will do things they wouldn't normally do because of the situation they're in.

Edited by Angury
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What was his excuse for the last two books then? :giggle2:

 

Overall, I don't think there is a lot of difference between the books.  The pacing of 4 and 5 slows down a bit, largely because Martin introduces a whole new slew of characters, but the basic story is just as good and there are certainly some surprises and jaw-dropping upsets along the way (I am speaking as someone who was able to read them all through in a relatively short space of time, though).

 

I read through the Wikipedia article on the writing of the series the other day - and there have also been some recent comments on the SFX website - that Martin is saying he thinks he will have the next book out before they run out of material for the TV series, but the last book (if he doesn't extend the series further) will be tight.

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Re: the Cersei debate -

 

I may change my mind as I read along, but after she took her revenge against innocent Lady - she's a dyed-in-the-wool baddie for me.  That was purely vicious! :o  and not promising as far as her nature goes. 

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That used to annoy me in years gone by, but I've changed my mind recently and I now think that a line of books that change styles as it goes along looks more interesting.

 

I only get irked now when novels by the same author are printed in different sized books (as happened for me in this series, where I have A Game of Thrones in a smaller size to the rest of the series and the more recent Terry Pratchett novels which are also larger in paperback than they used to be).

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The cover illustration of a book is pretty important as far as I'm concerned. I avoided the G of T. series for ages as one cover showed a dead dragon, and the other a depressed Sean Bean, neither to my taste! :negative:

Finally, I'd heard so much about the wonderful series it is, I lifted a blue-Bean copy for a look and fell in love.

Am now collecting them, mostly by scanning charity shops for bargins. Was a bit annoyed at first when I realised the series comes in two sizes, so the five I now have are varying. Actually though they don't look too bad in my bookcase, as the cover illustrations follow the same style, regardless of size.

 

In the end, it's the story that's important, and I'm luvin' it. :smile:   

 

Happy hours of :readingtwo: to us All.

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Having thought about the covers I saw, I'm wondering if they are actually alternate covers (like they sometimes issue books in to get new readers interested in a series) and whether the old style will continue.

 

Of course, that we would need a new book to prove that!

 

[Cue Steve]

 

ETA: Some of the new covers are now an Amazon.

Edited by Raven
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i havent read any of his books but ive just loaned two of them from library, Wild Cards book 1 & 2, actually i think there seperate stories written by different authors, any1 read them??

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Sorry Geordie so far I haven't even spotted them, but maybe there's a topic somewhere hereabouts - ?

Try a "search" y'never know. :smile:

 

Meanwhile I've scanned the other books of G.R.R. Martin and I have to say I'm not attracted at all!

 

I know authors can feel the need to change their style sometimes, but maybe they're just a leap too far?  

Anyone like them?

 

Back to the Clash of Kings :readingtwo:

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The cover illustration of a book is pretty important as far as I'm concerned. I avoided the G of T. series for ages as one cover showed a dead dragon, and the other a depressed Sean Bean, neither to my taste! :negative:

 

Sean Bean always looks depressed. :lol: Glad you're enjoying the series! If you're liking them now then you're in for a treat when you get to A Storm of Swords. :D

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I've come across a snag when  :readingtwo:  these books. They're pretty heavy (in weight terms, I mean) and I've found there's only one  occasion a day when I can read them comfortably i.e. propped against something. (yes, it's in bed!)

 

My other "reading spots"  are booked by my cat, who likes to grab a few quick zzzz's on my lap, and much resents being used as a book prop! :giggle2:

 

Another step nearer a Kindle or etc., I think ...  either that, or looking for the smaller versions of the novels.

 

Must start dropping hints - there's just over 2 months to go till my birthday. ;)

 

Happy Sunday reading, everybody.

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I've come across a snag when  :readingtwo:  these books. They're pretty heavy (in weight terms, I mean) and I've found there's only one  occasion a day when I can read them comfortably i.e. propped against something. (yes, it's in bed!)

 

My other "reading spots"  are booked by my cat, who likes to grab a few quick zzzz's on my lap, and much resents being used as a book prop! :giggle2:

 

Another step nearer a Kindle or etc., I think ...  either that, or looking for the smaller versions of the novels.

 

Must start dropping hints - there's just over 2 months to go till my birthday. ;)

 

Happy Sunday reading, everybody.

 

I agree, it can be a real pain trying to read heavy books. (My cat doesn't mind being used as a book prop, though, as long as you stroke her while you're reading! :giggle2: ). I think fantasy books do seem to be larger than most other genres - looking around at a lot of the newer stuff, the books seem to be getting bigger and bigger! :giggle2:

 

Happy Sunday reading to you too, and good luck with your Kindle hint-dropping.  ;)

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