Chrissy Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think in some ways there was a element of power, control for Augusten with regards to his relationship with Neil, here was someone who needed him, wanted him, something that Augusten had never experienced, and despite the inappropriateness of the relationship, Augusten wanted love, it was just sad he found it with Neil. Absolutely, but I also felt that no one could have anticipated Augusten's power there, amd that's where I feel disgust at the adults who allowed the relationship to take place without being actively involved. The episode that details their 'first time' is graphic and brutal, very uncomfortable reading, and Augusten had no control whatsoever in that. In a small mean voice he says, "There. Still think you're gay?" It is only later when Neil becomes infatuated that there is any shift of control between them. I felt at times that Augusten was caught in a whirlpool of his parents, the Finches and despite Augusten being in the middle of it, he was also at the edge looking in because he was moved to the side so often. There is a clear sense of that, and it's difficult to tell whether it's because he did emotionally stand outside looking in at the time, or whether it's his sense of recollection that creates that feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) More great insights Chrissy I felt the same about the adults especially Augusten's Mum, she really annoyed me, her own whole outlook towards her son was to me, unfeeling and uncaring, she wanted to explore her own goals, which is fair enough but to pass on her son onto another family with the head of the family, who lets face it, so borderline something (or a bit more). I think it is his sense of recollection that made me feel like he was standing on the sidelines, it must have been difficult writing about that part of his life. Edited June 11, 2009 by Weave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiepiper Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I think he had to stay a certain amount unattached when writing about his experiences, after all if they made him become an alcoholic, he couldn't let himself become so wrapped up in it again, for fear of it overwhelming him. I agree Chrissy, the first time with Neil was basically rape, and the snide little 'Still think you're gay?' comment after made me feel so sad for Augusten, that must not be a nice memory to have. But then to carry on with Neil the way he did, well he admitted himself he hated him in a way, but just couldn't let go of the obsessive love that Neil showed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissy Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I found the mother's lack of anything other than self interest was too unbearable. Everything she did was to validate her sense of self, with scant regard for anyone else. Why is it always the ones that are so vocal about their needs, their rights etc who have the least regard for anyone elses needs or rights? GGGrr! Like a sheep or dog that can predict an earthquake, I had always been able to sense when my mother was about to go crazy. How heartbreaking that you develop a sense for insanity. It must mean the difference between survival and despair. I've had violent partners in my distant past, I always knew when I would be facing a difficult time later. It's nuances that you tune into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Why is it always the ones that are so vocal about their needs, their rights etc who have the least regard for anyone elses needs or rights? GGGrr! Because they are so focused, they can't see the woods for the trees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiepiper Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I just think his mother was completely and utterly selfish, everything was about her, or twisted to be about her. To be honest, it's completely beyond me why she ever had children, maybe only to have someone to give her attention all the time, because that's how it seemed to be, that she needed constant attention about how brave and great and fantastic she and her poetry was. It's no wonder Augusten's estranged from her, and in all honesty I think that's the best thing he could have ever done, because people like that don't change, and it's just unhealthy to be subjected to that kind of treatment constantly. One thing I found incredibly disturbing in this book is the lack of parental regard to sex. For example, when Augusten walks in on his mother and the priest's wife, and she didn't care at all, and then when the mother brought the (polish?) guy back from the mental hospital with her, he slept with the mother, the mother's girlfriend (dorothy?) and then with Natalie too, and none of them used protection as they all got the infection after, very nasty! And then there's the relationship with Augusten and Neil, Natalie and her 'adopted father' and Dr. Finch and his many 'wives'. Who on earth does these kinds of things, and why would you ever encourage your children into sex at 13 or whatever, it's mind boggling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwemad Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 I think his mother, as selfish as she was, may also have been very ill. Many people suffering from severe depression are incapable of caring for themselves let alone a child. She too may have been seeking love and attention from all the wrong places. The problem, for me, was the help she chose. Finch was a complete fruitcake and clearly incompetent as a doctor. Society/the community appeared to be have no safety net in place at all. No neighbour, teacher, health worker, nosy parker down the street, nobody to interfere and offer opportunities to change. Hope was ill too if her starving the cat was anything to go by. Neil turned out to be on a path to self destruction and clearly had problems. Natalie and Augusten, it seems, were the two who were able to share a certain degree of normality with each other. I think should Augusten's Mum, Dad, Finch, Neil, Agnes or Hope write a similar tale regarding those same years, they may well read as equally harrowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiepiper Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Yeah I suppose that's true, but I feel like at least they were adults and able to care for themselves with regards to money and having their own place or whatever, for Augusten he had no choice, his mother wanted to dump him and he was dumped. I agree she was sick, but she was well enough to have Dorothy around constantly, so I think it is just selfishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwemad Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Ahh yes.... Dorothy. I can't begin to think where she fit in.... In fact, I think SHE should have been the one to spot all the misery and sickness and interfered. Wasn't she a vicar's wife? They can't ALL have been bonkers surely. Somebody should have done something. I wonder if I had lived down the road I would have suspected enough was amiss to say or do something. Sadly, I suspect not, we cannot see what goes on behind our neighbours curtains and kids in Augusten's position are not aware how unusual their lives are to shout loud enough to invade our busy lives. A lesson for all of us maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiepiper Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Dorothy was the live in gf, the vicar's wife came before that, but yeah I agree, she surely noticed something was going on But wasn't there a point where his mum and Dorothy threw everything in the back garden - smashing a lot of stuff in the process, being that she lived in a flat complex type thing, surely the neighbours would have heard or seen that? But I also think it's a case of not wanting to get involved with things that aren't your business, especially back then, I doubt it was very easy to contact social services and complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 I don't think the vicar's wife, Dorothy were blind to what was going on but in that respect, what could they say or do? because they were dealing with their own issues, which I know sounds really selfish, especially compared to the wellbeing of a child/teenager, maybe they just felt that they could not do anything, which I feel is very sad. I think Augusten's Mum had written a book, I would feel the same, I like to give anyone the benefit of the doubt but her continuing quest to get what she wanted from life, despite anyone else who may needed her was to me frightening, she let her son down in so many ways and no parent is perfect but she let him down, she left Augusten even more vulnerable. Who knows if she had included Augusten in some aspect of her life, it may have made them closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwemad Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 I suppose the bottom line is, should 'Mum' have written a book filled with attempts to justify her self pity and behaviour it may raise a little sympathy until one read about the neglect of the son. I mean, he was a child.... she was the adult, end of. I always feel quite sad to think of children who are constantly reminded about how 'grateful' they should be to parents/guardians for their providing for them. They have little choice but to rely on the adults for such provisions. Basics, in my opinion, include not only the food and shelter but love, advice, guidance, protection and support. This particular mother failed on many levels. She was incapable as a parent and the support network clearly failed also. I know it's OT but I can't help thinking about that little girl (and her poor siblings) who was starved to death by those who cared for her... sick parents by any definition who did not have to beat or burn their kids to be so very very cruel. Sorry... I'm feeling a bit sad today..... thinking too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted June 13, 2009 Author Share Posted June 13, 2009 I always feel quite sad to think of children who are constantly reminded about how 'grateful' they should be to parents/guardians for their providing for them. Anyone who feels that way about children shouldn't have them in the first place! It's part and parcel of being a parent to provide and care for your child, even if you can't bring yourself to love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissy Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 It's the 'parenting' by all the grown ups that is so disturbing. There is no safe haven for any of the young people in the book. Two immediate examples including Natalie being given to a man by her father under the pretext of her adulthood at 13 because the recipient is rich. Secondly, the complete disregard of Neil's pursuit and obsessive attitude toward Augusten. That's aside from the absent father and the not just neglectful, but damaging mother. As a parent I read so much of this with a mounting sense of horror. I wanted to rush into the text and rescue them all, while placing a few well-aimed slaps at the grown-ups on the way out! I wanted nurturing and warmth and understanding for them. I wanted regular mealtimes and structure and letting them know for certain that they matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kell Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 Kell, I'm sure you'd enjoy it, and you're more than welcome to borrow mine if you don't manage to mooch one THat's very kind of you. My mooch fell through, but I've ordered a copy from Green Metropolis now and it'll hopefully arrive in the next wek or so. I'll be a bit late reading it for the reading circle, but at least I'll be able to come back and comment. I've loved reading everyone's comments so far - it's been a classic case of a book starting out having no interest at all for me, but the idea growing on me as I've seen all the comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It really is a curious read Kell. It is written with clarity and humour, and I think that is what sets it apart from books that document difficult childhoods and the like. It is also written in an exceptionally non-judgemental way - and how he managed that is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 You also had the parents letting the children do what they wanted and the parents thinking they are doing the children a great favour, which I found worrying and sad, children need boundaries, parents should provide these boundaries, Augusten's Mum left him to explore her interests and being 'down with the kids' was not acceptable, she left her own son to his own devices, which to me, is unbelieveably selfish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucybird Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Giving your child freedom to some extent is good but to the level she did it is more like neglect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Giving your child freedom to some extent is good but to the level she did it is more like neglect Exactly Lucy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The mum wasn't so much giving Augusten freedom, as taking her own - seeing her marriage and parenting as the prison of a poet. Neither parent ever expressed the desire to know their children or to nurture them. I also found to my horror that the dad's passive absence from Augusten's life became somehow forgivable when compared to the mum's active neglect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The mum wasn't so much giving Augusten freedom, as taking her own - seeing her marriage and parenting as the prison of a poet. Neither parent ever expressed the desire to know their children or to nurture them. I also found to my horror that the dad's passive absence from Augusten's life became somehow forgivable when compared to the mum's active neglect. I agree, I understand what you mean about Augusten's Mum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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