Jump to content

The English Counties Challenge


Recommended Posts

I agree that it should be Thomas Hardy for Dorset. My head tells me that The Mayor of Casterbridge may be the more famous (but my head often lies so :shrug:) but there can't be much if anything in it and, if that's the case, I'd go for Far from the Madding Crowd  :smile: 

 

I don't really know enough about either of the two Staffordshire books to comment :blush2: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone can nominate books and express their opinions on the books for each county, and the only criteria is supposed to be the book most famous for being set in a particular county.  If there are books that are equally as famous as each other, then we can go for two alternatives for that county (like we've done with Surrey) or go with what the majority want to pick.

 

I'm trying to try and get a consensus on a book for each county before moving onto the next two, so at the moment, we're discussing Greater London and County Durham.  (I have made a note of books for other counties that have been mentioned, but I'm trying to keep it to a couple of counties at a time to avoid too much confusion!)

 

Thanks Claire for explaining that it makes sense to do it that way  :smile:

 

Sorry i did mean to come back to the thread sooner but we're decorating the hall  & everything is in chaos at the moment. For Durham my choice would be Nicholas Nickleby but that's because i'd rather read Dickens than Cookson so for Greater London although i'm tempted by Oliver Twist for the sake of variety my choice would be Sherlock Holmes. For Dorset from the options i'd plump for Far From The Madding Crowd & Staffordshire, Old Wives Tale because although AOTFT is set wholly in the county OWT is more famous. I think the suggestion to offer people a choice for the more difficult to resolve counties is a good idea as well .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Kidsmum, but no apologies needed! :smile2:

 

My choice for Dorset would also be Far From The Madding Crowd so I think we'll go with that one.  I know neither of the books for Staffordshire, and based on willoyd and Kidsmums comments, I think The Old Wives Tale seems the best fit.  I don't think it matters if it's not set wholly within the county, as long as it's still most associated with it, which you've convinced me it is.  So, that's another two counties down!

 

So next up, we've got suggestions for two of the Yorkshire counties:

 

 

South Yorkshire:
Kestrel for a Knave by Barry Hines
 
North Yorkshire:
A Month in the Country by J. L. Carr
Dracula by Bram Stoker
 
Any more suggestions from anyone to add to the debate?  For reference (since the different Yorkshire counties were confusing me), South Yorkshire is east of the Penines, and includes Barnsley, Doncaster, Rotherham and Sheffield, while North Yorkshire includes most of the Yorkshire Dales and the North York Moors with the biggest towns being Harrogate, Scarborough and Northallerton.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kestrel for a Knave is a great choice and out of the other two .. well, for me, it has to be Dracula .. that is a brilliant and very famous book :) I can't think of any other titles .. I expect Anne Bronte's The Tenant of Wildfell Hall comes under West Yorkshire? (so Anne has lost out to Emily :D) There's the James Herriot books of course but are they more famous than Dracula?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

North Yorkshire:

A Month in the Country by J. L. Carr

Dracula by Bram Stoker

 

Dracula is certainly world famous and a great book! However, it is set in North Yorkshire (Whitby) for less than 40 pages in a 355 page book (actually, it is even less than that, as some of those 40 pages are located elsewhere). To me, it can't be, and isn't, sufficiently representative of North Yorkshire.

 

One other possibility to consider for North Yorkshire could be Behind the Scenes at the Museum - Kate Atkinson's first book. I haven't read it yet, but I gather it's based in York?  (I think I'd still plump for A Month in the Country - a full scale novel set wholly in North Yorkshire, strongly setting based, Penguin Modern Classic, Guardian Prize winner, Booker short listed, filmed).

 

Dorset and Staffordshire look good!

 

 

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dracula is certainly world famous and a great book! However, it is set in North Yorkshire (Whitby) for less than 40 pages in a 355 page book (actually, it is even less than that, as some of those 40 pages are located elsewhere). To me, it can't be, and isn't, sufficiently representative of North Yorkshire.

Well I personally think you've already thrown that argument out .. Nicholas Nickleby isn't representative of Co Durham either .. and Catherine's books are .. but NN is the more famous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I personally think you've already thrown that argument out .. Nicholas Nickleby isn't representative of Co Durham either .. and Catherine's books are .. but NN is the more famous.

 

If you look back through my posts, you'll see that I said that I was arguing the case for NN as much because I knew the book, and knew the links, but didn't know the Cookson books, so only had my knowledge of their level of fame to go on.  As I tried to explain, I put up the arguments, argued them, and waited for somebody to put the other case.  Nobody did, which is why I suspect NN was put in place (as we're putting the list together still, I'm sure the case is still open for someone who knows the Cookson books to argue and persuade us all of the opposite).

 

Here, I know all the books (bar the Atkinson) well.  For me, the setting of one transitionary, if well known, scene from Dracula in Whitby is insufficient compared to the other books being suggested.  I didn't throw the argument out - each case is individual as every book's association, fame etc. is different, and I argued the other side of the fence on that occasion because I thought, rightly or wrongly, that the balance was different.  There's surely still room for persuasion!

 

Kidsmum: you say Dracula is the more famous of the two books.  Two more books have since been mentioned to one degree of another, so they probably need consideration as well?  I certainly almost missed one tucked away in poppyshake's post, but it strikes me as a good on:  my vote would be for  James Herriot  - All Creatures Great and Small is perhaps the most famous title?

.

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the book (A Month in the Country) is not famous imo, I'm getting blank looks when I ask about it. Now, that's greatly to my (and the people I've asked) disadvantage I've no doubt but critically acclaimed is not the same thing as famous. I hadn't heard about it until Claire suggested it for the Nov circle.

If we're going to rule books out because they are only fleetingly set in the chosen location then we have to do that right across the board because a book could be found to suit every county if it's just based on location and how redolent it is of the area.

 

In my view your comment about 'people considering putting books like Fifteen Streets in front of Nicholas Nickleby' was not likely to encourage anyone to argue the case for Catherine .. it suggests we're all idiots for even contemplating it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the book (A Month in the Country) is not famous imo, I'm getting blank looks when I ask about it. Now, that's greatly to my (and the people I've asked) disadvantage I've no doubt but critically acclaimed is not the same thing as famous. I hadn't heard about it until Claire suggested it for the Nov circle.

 

Fair comment.  It's one reason why I've gone for James Herriot.

 

If we're going to rule books out because they are only fleetingly set in the chosen location then we have to do that right across the board because a book could be found to suit every county if it's just based on location and how redolent it is of the area.

 

In my view your comment about 'people considering putting books like Fifteen Streets in front of Nicholas Nickleby' was not likely to encourage anyone to argue the case for Catherine .. it suggests we're all idiots for even contemplating it.  

 

I've been back through every post I've written here, and I can't find anywhere where I've said or implied that. I obviously have but certainly didn't mean to, so my apologies for what is obviously some very poor wording on my part somewhere (where please?).  The only points I thought I made about Catherine Cookson is that whilst she herself is currently well known, her individual books are not, and that it seems that her own fame is likely to be receding too..  Just like you did on A Month in the Country, I drew a complete blank when I asked people at work if they could name a single Cookson book; quite a few younger members of staff didn't know her name either.. 

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

True, Oliver Twist is probably marginally more so, probably because of things like the film musical, even if it's generally recognised as not being his greatest, but then people are considering putting books like The Fifteen Streets in front of Nicholas Nickleby, so it's obviously not just fame that comes into it. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Janet - I'd just found it and was trying to edit my previous post to acknowledge!

 

Thank you also for quoting the full sentence.  As I hope can be seen from that, all I was trying to do was point out that the fact that people were putting relatively unknown books like The Fifteen Streets in front of more famous books like Nicholas Nickleby showed that the criteria of fame wasn't the only thing we were considering - thus supporting my efforts to promote Mrs Dalloway as an alternative to Oliver Twist.  At no stage was I attempting to imply that people were idiots doing so - rather the opposite, as I was using exactly the same argument myself!  I'm sorry if it came over otherwise: I do enjoy the hurley-burley of this sort of discussion, and can sometimes get carried away.  To be honest, I'm a bit horrified that I've left myself open to such an unpleasant interpretation. 

 

Claire - given what Kay has said, should we revisit the Durham topic? I'd hate to think people had been inhibitied in making suggestions by anything I wrote.

 

Kay - on your point about looking back across the board: i think we're still exploring what sort of book should stand.  We've started with the book's fame being uppermost, and I do think that's one important criteria, but maybe what this recent discussions have shown is that it can just as much be about the author.  Thus, whilst Catherine Cookson's books may not be individually famous, she herself is, particularly for her association with the north-east, and thus what might be chosen is an example book?  It was a bit like that with London: we all agreed that we needed a Dickens book somewhere, as it's Dickens's association with London that was the big link; same with Hardy and Dorset.  in each case, the book itself has been almost an extra - it's the author who has mattered.  We were 'lucky' with Dickens and Hardy in that they both wrote famous books, but we may well come across other instances where the author is famous but the books aren't so much, and it would be a pity to put them to one side on that account. (And yes, this might be construed as a change of mind - I'd rather say that it's an ongoing process of forming one's mind!).

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You argue your points robustly Willoyd .. probably because you do feel so passionately about the subject .. it's just that nobody wants to be battered into submission or feel that their suggestions are considered unworthy of inclusion .. it won't encourage people to join in and it doesn't encourage the members who are taking part to continue.

I don't feel it's necessary for us to look at County Durham again .. I think we were all agreed that, with few options, Nicholas Nickleby is the most famous book with a link to that location (and I still say that's the case with Dracula). It's just that when you make comments like 'books like The Fifteen Streets' and say that Oliver Twist is probably known mostly because of it's 'ghastly musical' I don't find it helpful .. I just find it belittling. Ultimately Claire has the casting vote on this thread and she made the decision to go with Nicholas Nickleby which is fine with me.

 

I don't want this thread to turn into one big argument (and I apologise to everyone for my part in that :friends0: ) .. we want people to join in and enjoy taking part in the book selection as much as the challenge itself. Debating is one thing .. but nobody wants to feel ridiculed. I'm not for one minute saying that that is your intention .. I'm just saying that it can sometimes be the effect of the words you use to argue your case. There are no right or wrong books to like or nominate .. we're here to discuss the merits of each suggestion.

 

I do want to read A Month in the Country as it sounds like it's a brilliant read .. but I will choose the option of going for Dracula when I do the challenge as the main criteria here, whether we like it or not, is how famous the book is. Perhaps this is one of the counties that we can have an alternative for (like Cumbria.)

 

*sigh* .. I know I'm going to have to have my work cut out convincing you that those noble rabbits scampered all around Hampshire (for a start ... you will say that they had more than one paw in Berkshire :D) .. ooh I've just realised we could have had The Tale of Peter Rabbit and Benjamin Bunny as a suggestion for Cumbria :D .. very short read that .. could cross it off in no time :D  

 

Shall we try to behave ourselves for five mins? :blush2: Claire will be bashing our heads together when she comes back :blush2: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You argue your points robustly Willoyd .. probably because you do feel so passionately about the subject .. it's just that nobody wants to be battered into submission or feel that their suggestions are considered unworthy of inclusion .. it won't encourage people to join in and it doesn't encourage the members who are taking part to continue.

I don't feel it's necessary for us to look at County Durham again .. I think we were all agreed that, with few options, Nicholas Nickleby is the most famous book with a link to that location (and I still say that's the case with Dracula). It's just that when you make comments like 'books like The Fifteen Streets' and say that Oliver Twist is probably known mostly because of it's 'ghastly musical' I don't find it helpful .. I just find it belittling. Ultimately Claire has the casting vote on this thread and she made the decision to go with Nicholas Nickleby which is fine with me.

 

As I said above, I had hoped that reading that sentence again would demonstrate that, rather than belittling either the book or the readers, I was using it as a model of how the criteria could be set up, and when I said 'like The Fifteen Streets' I was simply referring to the book's level of fame - there was no other meaning attached (I didn't even know about it when it was suggested, let alone have any knowledge of it). I'm sorry that you see it as belittling anything or anyone, and sorry for any offence caused. I have to be honest and say that even on rereading, I don't read it that way, rather the opposite, but obviously must recognise that it has been seen in a different way!  (And I did try to delete my comment about the 'ghastly' musical as soon as I could, even if not fast enough - definitely not an opinion I should have offered!)

 

I do want to read A Month in the Country as it sounds like it's a brilliant read .. but I will choose the option of going for Dracula when I do the challenge as the main criteria here, whether we like it or not, is how famous the book is. Perhaps this is one of the counties that we can have an alternative for (like Cumbria.)

 

As I said, above, on going through the books, I'm going to stick with James Herriot. I do agree that AMITC isn't sufficiently famous, but feel on the other hand that James Herriot is the best combination of fame and association with the county. I just don't see Dracula as being sufficiently 'of' North Yorkshire (that may seem different to the view I offered on Nicholas Nickleby, but all I can say is that I'm learning as we go along!).

 

*sigh* .. I know I'm going to have to have my work cut out convincing you that those noble rabbits scampered all around Hampshire (for a start

 

Actually.....no convincing needed! I already had Watership Down listed as the one I would suggest for Hampshire, so can only agree: brilliant book, and brilliantly 'of' the area (I've even visited it!) - no arguments from me on that one.

 

Shall we try to behave ourselves for five mins? :blush2: Claire will be bashing our heads together when she comes back :blush2:

 

Will do my best, honest!

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

you will say that they had more than one paw in Berkshire :D)

 

Looking at my own list, I think some other paws might have a claim on Berkshire (rather damp ones!).

 

any bronte book for west Yorkshire

 

The easy answer is yes! If you look back to the start of the thread, chesilbeach is gradually building up the list of books with counties once agreed. The West Yorkshire book is Wuthering Heights.

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

*deep breath*
 
Ok, I think we're all agreed on Kestrel for a Knave by Barry Hines for South Yorkshire, despite a lack of choice, at least we all know it and agree, so I'll update the list with that one.
 
Looking at the debate for North Yorkshire, let's take them one at a time.  I think A Month In The Country probably isn't famous enough, so we'll put that one aside.  
 
Now, if the only other option was Dracula, as I haven't read it, but it was me who put it through, I'll explain my reasoning.  I had no idea how much of the book was set in the county but, I've always seen it associated with Whitby, and I've read at least three books over the years which have been set in Whitby (or fictional places which could be taken as Whitby) that have been inspired by Dracula, so these have only increased my perception of the association of the book with that county.
 
Since then, we've also had Behind the Scenes at the Museum, which I read when it first came out and don't remember it having a particular sense of place, and wouldn't have been able to say where it was set if you'd asked me.  So, I'm ruling that one out myself.
 
On the other hand, how could I have forgotten All Creatures Great and Small by James Herriot? I wondered if it suffers from the same argument about Oliver Twist in that it's more famous because of the television series, but I did borrow all the audio books from the library for my dad a few years ago, so the popularity must still be high for the library to keep them in the system, and it seems like a valid choice to me.
 
So, that leaves us with the choice of All Creatures Great and Small or the controversial Dracula?  Despite willoyd's point that very little of it is set in North Yorkshire, I've explained why I still feel it's a justifiable option, so I'll leave it up to everyone else.  As we didn't have the James Herriot option initially, please can you let me know which you'd prefer.  If necessary, we'll have another county with two alternatives.  What do you all think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you may have gathered, I'm going for James Herriot.  World famous (the books have been translated into all the world languages, sales knocking on for 100 million), they are synonymous with North Yorkshire. 

 

Certainly Whitby has associations with Dracula - but it's much more a book generally associated worldwide with Transylvania.

 

BTW -on the subject of Claire's query about what stimulated sales: Herriot sales took off well before the TV series.  The big development was when the first two books were sold in the States as an omnibus addition, given the title 'All Creatures Great and Small'.  The films followed, and only then the TV series, which took the name of that successful book edition.

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Claire :blush2:  :hug: 

 

I'm happy for there to be two alternatives for North Yorkshire .. I can't see us reaching agreement otherwise. My vote goes to Dracula though .. I still think the association is strong (and so do the good folk of Whitby judging on how much Dracula themed stuff is there :blush2: .. that would be the same for James Herriot though probably.)  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm happy for there to be two alternatives for North Yorkshire ..

 

Well, it's such a big county and the two books are set in such different places within it.....

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think I wait and see if anyone else has any thoughts, so why don't we move on to another couple of counties....
 
 
East Riding:
South Riding by Winifred Holtby
 
For anyone who's not sure of the region (me included, so I've looked it up! :D), it's on the north east coast of England, north of the Humber Estuary and the three largest towns are Kingston Upon Hull, Bridlington and Beverley.  I've not heard of the book willoyd has mentioned, but I'm struggling to find any others.  Anyone else know of any?
 

Hampshire:
Watership Down by Richard Adams
The Woman In White by Wilkie Collins
 
I think I can already guess what certain people will be choosing, but perhaps there are some other suggestions to ponder? :giggle2:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

East Riding

South Riding by Winifred Holtby

 

For anyone who's not sure of the region (me included, so I've looked it up! :D), it's on the north east coast of England, north of the Humber Estuary and the three largest towns are Kingston Upon Hull, Bridlington and Beverley.  I've not heard of the book willoyd has mentioned

 

It may be better known round here (Yorkshire) - OH was certainly familiar when I asked her if she'd heard of it just now (now that's what I call a scientifc test!).  It's  never been out of print, and has spawned a film, two TV series (the most recent an Andrew Davies adaptation on the BBC, with Anna Maxwell Martin  in 2011) and a radio series.  FWIW I spotted it today in a fairly prominent position in the classics section in Waterstones.  The names may not correspond, but South Riding is meant to be the East Riding, and the book is reckoned to be Holtby's masterpiece.

 

I think it's fairly clear which book I'd go for with Hampshire, unless somebody comes up with a strong alternative!

Edited by willoyd
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...