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Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel


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5. What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

According to Wikipedia,

 

I must admit that although this is a clever play on words, it's significance did not strike me as particularly important....

Agreed.  I kept wondering why that title, then later I saw the name of the Seymour home.  Still didn't seem particularly appropriate. 

The 'man is wolf to man' is certainly more appropriate, but not obvious.  If that were the case shouldn't Mantel have had something about that in the quotes in the front?  Or did I miss that? lol

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6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing?

 

I thought her third person, present tense, omniscient was fantastic.  If I have that right.

 

I had a slight trouble sorting the "he" at first, then realized that when Mantel referred simply to "he" she meant Cromwell.  There were several times she did, in fact, clarify that it was Cromwell speaking.  All other times, she clarified which Thomas/he was speaking.

It took a bit to get into the rhythm of her writing, but once there, wow! 

 

Maureen, I loved her humor as well.  Dark, sardonic.  Yes!  I think that reflected the times.....and it makes sense for Cromwell to have had that sort of humor. 

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Regarding using children and women as currency. 

That is something from time immemorial.  It's only in the last (maybe) 100 years or so that the notion of marrying for love came into vogue.  And then only among those that didn't have money/wealth/position.  Don't think it doesn't happen now among those with power. Alliances.  Money marries money.

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5. What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

According to Wikipedia,

 

I must admit that although this is a clever play on words, it's significance did not strike me as particularly important....

 

 

Agreed.  I kept wondering why that title, then later I saw the name of the Seymour home.  Still didn't seem particularly appropriate. 

The 'man is wolf to man' is certainly more appropriate, but not obvious.  If that were the case shouldn't Mantel have had something about that in the quotes in the front?  Or did I miss that? lol

 

I was baffled by why she had named the book after the home of the Seymours when it got such a small mention in the story.  And I have never heard of the quote, so would never have come to realise that was the significance of it!  Another reminder of just how little claim I have to being intellectual  :D   I definitely agree that Mantel should have had something about it at the front of the book.

 

6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing?

 

I did find it slightly confusing at first, but then I just decided to go with the flow and only checked back if I actually felt I had lost the thread, which actually happened very rarely.  I thoroughly enjoyed Mantel's style of writing and felt totally engaged by it.

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7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What
larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish?
  (from litlovers.com)


 

I picked this question because I really want to know what other people think about this. 
While reading the book, I did not really think that Cromwell disliked the Catholic clergy so much – he loved to lock horns with any person who stood in the way of what he wanted to achieve, be it a catholic priest, a queen, a princess or a pauper.  In my opinion he transformed England from a Catholic state to a Protestant State so that he would get what he really wanted – an annulment for the King, which would give him such a boost in the King’s esteem.  I do not really believe that he wanted to help the King get a male heir for the good of the country – although he worked hard to make that happen.



 

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5. What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

I must admit that although this is a clever play on words, it's significance did not strike me as particularly important....

 

I agree, as it doesn't feature much in the story i'm not sure why she chose it for the title. Haven't said that i do like the title & i'd be interested to know why she picked it.

 

6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing?

 

 I had a slight trouble sorting the "he" at first, then realized that when Mantel referred simply to "he" she meant Cromwell.  There were several times she did, in fact, clarify that it was Cromwell speaking.  All other times, she clarified which Thomas/he was speaking.

It took a bit to get into the rhythm of her writing, but once there, wow! 

 

I felt forewarned as other people had had trouble with her writing style & i did have to give the book my full concentration especially in the beginning which is no bad thing really but once i'd got into the flow of the book i didn't find it a problem. I sometimes found i'd forgotten who was who when it came to the minor characters so it was really helpful having them listed at the front of the book.

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7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish?

 

This is where I suffer from having read the book a couple of weeks in advance of the reading group, because I didn't make anything deep out of this and can't now remember enough to tell whether I should have!

 

I didn't think Cromwell disliked Catholic clergy in any way, in fact Cardinal Wolsey was one of those he had been closest to in his life.  Cromwell did want changes, but it's not necessary to dislike people who practice something you don't agree with.  And I saw his helping Henry to marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope purely as being his job as Henry's "fixer".

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7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What
larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish?
(from litlovers.com)

 

Cromwell hated hypocrisy in any form.  He saw the Catholic clergy as rampant with said hypocrisy, and wanted to eradicate it.

As far as the larger goals...at least in reference to Catholic clergy, I felt that Cromwell wanted the Bible to be available to the "masses" in English, he supported Tyndale and his brethren...Cromwell was part of that movement.

 

Larger goals regarding Anne Bolyen......I don't feel they were either selfless or selfish.  He did what he did to further Henry's agenda.  That, after all, is what he was promoted for, and what he was required to do.  So, if doing what needs to be done to accomplish the King's fancy is selfish, in that respect he was selfish.  But I don't consider Cromwell to be a selfish man.  Yes he wanted what was best for himself and his family, but doesn't any household head want that?  I never felt the fire of total ambition in Cromwell.  I never felt he would sacrifice everything or anyone for his ambition.  Mantel presented him as, basically, an honorable man.  At least as far as I can see. He tried and tried to get More to capitulate, he did not want More to die.

 

Severing ties with the Pope...well, I don't see that he was too bothered by the prospect.  After all, he wanted the Bible to be in English and that would not have been accomplished under Catholicism, I think. 

Edited by pontalba
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7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What

larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish? (from litlovers.com)

 

 

 

Larger goals regarding Anne Bolyen......I don't feel they were either selfless or selfish.  He did what he did to further Henry's agenda.  That, after all, is what he was promoted for, and what he was required to do.  So, if doing what needs to be done to accomplish the King's fancy is selfish, in that respect he was selfish.  But I don't consider Cromwell to be a selfish man.  Yes he wanted what was best for himself and his family, but doesn't any household head want that?  I never felt the fire of total ambition in Cromwell.  I never felt he would sacrifice everything or anyone for his ambition.  Mantel presented him as, basically, an honorable man.  At least as far as I can see. He tried and tried to get More to capitulate, he did not want More to die.

 

 

True....however, more than selfish or selfless, I felt that he would sacrifice his principles to do his job without hesitation - in some instances I felt that he had twinges of regrets as regards Queen Caterine and her daughter Mary.  Perhaps, after all, this shows that he was the best man for the job he was chosen for.

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5.  What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

Very apposite. OK it refers to the Seymours' family seat, but I think that's a minor, if cohesive, aspect. It's more to do with the nature and atmosphere of the royal court of the time. I think Hilary Mantel referred to something along those lines in one of her interviews. And, of course, that is the direction he is going through the book - towards the higher reaches of Tudor society and reception in the private home of one of the greatest families of the time. But that last bit may just be my feverish attempts at needing to find a reason....!

 

6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing? 

It was only after I had finished the book that I even noticed that there was any sort of discussion on this topic (I read it in the first few months after it came out). Whilst reading, it had never even remotely crossed my mind. Indeed, one of the pleasures I derived from Wolf Hall was the clarity of the writing (needless to say, I was completely wrapped up in it from start to finish). I was amazed to find that it had started to build a reputation for being difficult/confusing to read in places.

Edited by willoyd
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 It's more to do with the nature and atmosphere of the royal court of the time.

 

That actually makes a lot more sense to me!  Looked at from that point of view, it is indeed a very good title for the book I think.

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True....however, more than selfish or selfless, I felt that he would sacrifice his principles to do his job without hesitation - in some instances I felt that he had twinges of regrets as regards Queen Caterine and her daughter Mary.  Perhaps, after all, this shows that he was the best man for the job he was chosen for.

Probably, but I think there were levels...as to what he'd sacrifice for what purpose.  Agreed regarding his feelings toward Queen Catherine and Mary. 

 

 

It was only after I had finished the book that I even noticed that there was any sort of discussion on this topic (I read it in the first few months after it came out). Whilst reading, it had never even remotely crossed my mind. Indeed, one of the pleasures I derived from Wolf Hall was the clarity of the writing (needless to say, I was completely wrapped up in it from start to finish). I was amazed to find that it had started to build a reputation for being difficult/confusing to read in places.

Fully agree.

 

 

It's more to do with the nature and atmosphere of the royal court of the time. 

I like that reasoning, fits very well!

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8. What are your feelings about Cromwell after having read this book?

 

Overall, Cromwell is shown to be a nice person.  I loved the way he took care of his family, how much he loved his wife and children, and how he made it a point to be as different to his father as regards to his family as possible.  I also admired him for helping Mary Boleyn when she wanted to start over a new life, and helping her get an annuity, which as he said, she deserved, as she worked for it 'on her back'.  He also showed compassion to various other people, for example he took in Helen Barre and her children, and the boy Christophe from Calais, he was always kind to people in need.  Notwitstanding his generous nature, he also had a hard streak in him as well - he never forgave Henry Percy for his treatment of the cardinal and he made sure that when the time was right, Percy was made to pay for his deeds.

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I agree very much with what you say, Maureen.  I came to like the character of Cromwell very much while reading the book and actually missed him for quite a few weeks after I finished it.  I would love to know how accurate the portrayal is!  :)

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8. What are your feelings about Cromwell after having read this book?

 

 

From the book(s) I felt Cromwell was an honorable and fair minded person.  He was a lonely man, made so both by his past and his position. He was a very deep individual that thought about consequences, and always tried to do the best with a bad situation.  He was extremely intelligent and had a bit of a morose, or black, sense of humor.  Although I can't remember the particular places that appears, I only remember the feeling. 

 

He had a long memory of wrongs done him, or his friends, but admitted when he was wrong.  Now I can't remember if it was in this book, or the next...but it isn't really a plot spoiler...he found out that his father defended him after he'd (T.C.) fled England.  He was much surprised by this fact, and it made him reassess his father's behaviour toward him.  Considering his father's terrible behaviour towards him, I thought that was a magnificent and fair minded thing to do.

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It is assumed that you have read the book before reading posts in this thread, as the discussion might give away crucial points, and the continuous use of spoiler tags might hinder fluent reading of posts.

 

Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel

 

Winner of the Man Booker Prize 2009

'Lock Cromwell in a deep dungeon in the morning,' says Thomas More, 'and when you come back that night he'll be sitting on a plush cushion eating larks' tongues, and all the gaolers will owe him money.'

England, the 1520s. Henry VIII is on the throne, but has no heir. Cardinal Wolsey is his chief advisor, charged with securing the divorce the pope refuses to grant. Into this atmosphere of distrust and need comes Thomas Cromwell, first as Wolsey's clerk, and later his successor. Cromwell is a wholly original man: the son of a brutal blacksmith, a political genius, a briber, a charmer, a bully, a man with a delicate and deadly

expertise in manipulating people and events. Ruthless in pursuit of his own interests, he is as ambitious in his wider politics as he is for himself. His reforming agenda is carried out in the grip of a self-interested parliament and a king who fluctuates between romantic passions and murderous rages.

From one of our finest living writers, ‘Wolf Hall’ is that very rare thing: a truly great English novel, one that explores the intersection of individual psychology and wider politics. With a vast array of characters, and

richly overflowing with incident, it peels back history to show us Tudor England as a half-made society, moulding itself with great passion, suffering and courage.

 

Welcome to April's book circle. I think we have a very interesting choice this month, with lots of potential for discussion.  There are also a number of discussion questions online, some of which I will borrow.

 

 

 

 

1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable?

 

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative? Q 1 & 2 From book coasters (Gold Coast Library)

 

3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?

 

4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

5.  What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

  6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing?  Q6 from cambridgelibraries.ca

 

7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What

larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish? (from litlovers.com)

 

8.  What are your feelings about Cromwell after having read this book?

 

 

9.  In your opinion, did this book deserve the Man Booker Prize? Was it an enjoyable read? Will you be reading the sequel - Bring up the bodies?

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9. In your opinion, did this book deserve the Man Booker Prize? Was it an enjoyable read? Will you be reading the sequel - Bring up the bodies?

 

I enjoyed reading the book - this period of British History really fascinates me, and I find the lives of these characters to be so interesting and dynamic.  I do think that Mantel's fresh portrayal of Cromwell is suberb, so rich and alive, it is as if she were living in the same period.  I do think her book deserving of the Man Booker Prize - although I did not find it easy to read in the beginning, as soon as I got used to her writing style, I enjoyed it tremendously.  I think I will be reading the sequel very soon - and according to comments in this tread, :) it should be just as good as this one.

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9. In your opinion, did this book deserve the Man Booker Prize? Was it an enjoyable read? Will you be reading the sequel - Bring up the bodies?

 

 

No question about it.  YES!

Most enjoyable.  However, I must add that this was my second attempt at starting.  The first crashed and burned not too long into it.  I don't really know why, except I felt a slight discombobulation, a disturbance in the force.......dunno.  That happens occasionally, I'll start something, put it down on account of ambivalence.............then absolutely love it the second go-round.  Go figure! lol

 

As previously posted, I've read the second and await with bated breath the third.  /breathe kat!/

I think, but am on the fence, that the second was......oh, I hate to say "better", but more of....something.  Excellent at any rate. :)

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9. In your opinion, did this book deserve the Man Booker Prize? Was it an enjoyable read? Will you be reading the sequel - Bring up the bodies?

 

 

No question about it.  YES!

Most enjoyable.  However, I must add that this was my second attempt at starting.  The first crashed and burned not too long into it.  I don't really know why, except I felt a slight discombobulation, a disturbance in the force.......dunno.  That happens occasionally, I'll start something, put it down on account of ambivalence.............then absolutely love it the second go-round.  Go figure! lol

 

 

I do think this is not a book to start if you are going through a hectic/busy/emotional time in your life.  It needs full attention and a calm state of mind to be enjoyed in my opinion.

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I do think this is not a book to start if you are going through a hectic/busy/emotional time in your life.  It needs full attention and a calm state of mind to be enjoyed in my opinion.

Absolutely.  No distractions.  Especially in the beginning.  Once you get into the rhythm it's ok.  But then you don't want distractions! lol

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