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Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel


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It is assumed that you have read the book before reading posts in this thread, as the discussion might give away crucial points, and the continuous use of spoiler tags might hinder fluent reading of posts.

 

Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel

 

Winner of the Man Booker Prize 2009

'Lock Cromwell in a deep dungeon in the morning,' says Thomas More, 'and when you come back that night he'll be sitting on a plush cushion eating larks' tongues, and all the gaolers will owe him money.'

England, the 1520s. Henry VIII is on the throne, but has no heir. Cardinal Wolsey is his chief advisor, charged with securing the divorce the pope refuses to grant. Into this atmosphere of distrust and need comes Thomas Cromwell, first as Wolsey's clerk, and later his successor. Cromwell is a wholly original man: the son of a brutal blacksmith, a political genius, a briber, a charmer, a bully, a man with a delicate and deadly
expertise in manipulating people and events. Ruthless in pursuit of his own interests, he is as ambitious in his wider politics as he is for himself. His reforming agenda is carried out in the grip of a self-interested parliament and a king who fluctuates between romantic passions and murderous rages.

From one of our finest living writers, ‘Wolf Hall’ is that very rare thing: a truly great English novel, one that explores the intersection of individual psychology and wider politics. With a vast array of characters, and
richly overflowing with incident, it peels back history to show us Tudor England as a half-made society, moulding itself with great passion, suffering and courage.

 

Welcome to April's book circle. I think we have a very interesting choice this month, with lots of potential for discussion.  There are also a number of discussion questions online, some of which I will borrow.

 

 

 

 

1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable?

 

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative? Q 1 & 2 From book coasters (Gold Coast Library)

 

3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?


4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

5.  What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

  6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing?  Q6 from cambridgelibraries.ca

 

7. Why does Cromwell dislike the Catholic clergy? What are his motives for helping Henry marry Anne Boleyn and sever ties to the Pope? What
larger goals does he hope to achieve in helping? Are they selfless...or selfish?
(from litlovers.com)

 

8.  What are your feelings about Cromwell after having read this book?

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1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable? 

 

I cannot say I read a lot of historical accounts of Cromwell's life, fictional or non-fictional, so perhaps I am not the best critic for this one, but I liked the way Cromwell was portrayed. There is no doubt at all that he led an interesting and eventful life, was a great lawyer and was a people person, so I guess being a sympathetic character would be believable and also probable. However I do think that his ambition, aggressive behaviour and self preservation must have been greater than those depicted in Wolf Hall, qualities which must have been a pre-requisite for a successful lawyer and advisor to Henry Tudor.

 

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative?

 

Yes, I believe Hilary Mantel has successfully woven facts and ficion in this novel. For example I love the way she created an early life for Cromwell - a period of his life about which not much fact is documented.

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1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable?

I didn't know anything about Thomas Cromwell before i read Wolf Hall; I certainly don't remember learning about him at school so i don't have anything to compare Mantels portrayal of him with. Having said that i liked his character very much he came across as a strong, intelligent man who had achieved his position of trusted advisor to both Wolsey & Henry not by toadying or underhand methods but by being trustworthy, loyal & clever.

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative?

As i said my knowledge of that time in history is limited to what i've learnt & remembered from school but i thought Mantel brought the characters to life & i felt that i learnt more about the Tudors from Wolf Hall than i ever learnt in school.

 

 

 
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Only halfway through, but the thing that strikes me is the humor.  Black humor at times, but a wonderful, cynical and true sense of the ridiculous.  I suppose serving Henry, one needed that!

I'll be back when I've finished. :D

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1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable?

I studied the Tudors for A-Level, and my lasting memory of Cromwell was as one of the 'hard' men of history, who lived by the 'sword' and died by the 'sword', the sword in his case being royal politics. So, it was fascinating reading Mantel's alternative account; I found it utterly believable. Indeed, for me it made Cromwell himself more believable (if that is possible!), as I could relate to why he did what he did in a way that I never did when studying him. Now, whether that is just appealing to my 20th/21st century sensibilities or whether this is a genuinely historically likely alternative I'm not sure, but it certainly captured my imagination and kept me gripped throughout - this was a big book that never felt like a big book. I'd like to read a Tudor historian's take on the book though.

 

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative?

As far as my knowledge of Tudor history goes, yes it does, but, again, I'd like to read an expert's take on it. The problem is that most readers will not have the detailed knowledge to make a sufficiently reliable judgement - I certainly don't. Again, I'm uncertain how much simply appeals to my 21st century perspective.

 

 

 

 

 

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I particulary loved parts where Cromwell's humane side is show - for example when he visited the Master of the Rolls' house, he was with his young servant, who saw and tore up a spiderweb and Cromwell calls him a heartless boy as he had broken up the spider's home. 

I also loved the fact that he was a loving husband and father especially during this period in time, when being faithful was not the order of the day, and the realtionship between fathers and their children was quite cold and factual.  Unfortunately he lost his wife and two children, but he 'made' another family with his wards and employees, and gave them as much comfort, security and attention as possible.

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I suppose most of you have seen Holbein's portrait described in Wolf Hall, but here 'tis, just in case.  I hadn't in any case. :)

157hptz.jpg

 

I pictured it a little differently, from Mantel's description.....I thought Cromwell would be facing forward.  But this is good anyhow.

 

1. There are many and varied historical accounts of Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character surprising and believable?

 

I haven't read much in the way of non-fiction about Cromwell, but considering the fictional accounts I pictured him as a cold and cruel person.  And he was.  However.  Mantel managed to show the warm side of him, and most importantly showed the reasons he was the way he turned out.  He adored his wife and daughters, and as mentioned by Maureen, he made himself a new family and didn't allow himself to drown in either sorrow or regret for what might have been.  On the occasions he remembered or dreamed about his wife and daughters, there was nothing maudlin about it.  And he didn't forget them, not a bit.  Nice balance there.

 

2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative?

 

Absolutely.  From other readings, yes fictional, but all the same....they were/are writers with a pretty firm grip on reality.

I suspect, and hope Mantel took some of the conversations from actual letters between the parties.  It sounds as though she did, and I'll try to do some research to verify. 

We know Cromwell was a hard man, and instead of making him a caricature of himself, as is easily done, and most commonly done I might add, Mantel breathed a real life into him

 

I've started the next one....lol

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1. There are many and varied historical accounts of
Cromwell’s life. Did you find his portrayal as a sympathetic character
surprising and believable?


I am embarrassed to admit that I don't remember hearing of Thomas Cromwell, only of Oliver Cromwell, so I didn't find it surprising as I had no previous knowledge or preconceptions about him at all.  I did think that it was a very believable portrayal, it made me really like him as a character and I still miss him although I finished the book weeks ago!  It's a long time (if ever) that a character in a book had that effect on me.  It has made me want to learn much more about the era and about Thomas Cromwell himself to learn different points of view about him.


2. Do you think that Hilary Mantel successfully merges historical fact with the narrative?

 

I don't have an in-depth knowledge of the Tudor period at all (see above comment about Thomas Cromwell!) but she certainly brought it and the characters to life to write a very gripping and interesting book.  As Willoyd said, I would love to read the opinion of someone with an expert knowledge on the subject to see just how accurate it is regarded as being.

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I agree, Mantel certainly brought all the characters to life beautifully.  There are a few threads over on Good Reads about Wolf Hall, and I am amazed at some of the comments.  One reader said she was well versed in Tudor history, and found Wolf Hall to be "dry and pretentious"!!  :blink:  That almost knocked me over.  But, I noted that she said nothing against the accuracy of the book.

 

But.....there was an interesting comment that brought out something I'd finally decided on about a quarter into the book.

 

That is, when Mantel simply says "he", she means Cromwell himself, and when it isn't Cromwell she specifies the speaker in some way.  I did see a few times that Mantel backed up the "he" with a comma and Cromwell.    IOW, she'd say......."he, Cromwell.....".

 

Mantel has an acid tongue, for sure.  And while that may not serve her well in life, it is fantastic as far as her writing is concerned.

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I suppose most of you have seen Holbein's portrait described in Wolf Hall, but here 'tis, just in case.  I hadn't in any case. :)

 

 

I pictured it a little differently, from Mantel's description.....I thought Cromwell would be facing forward.  But this is good anyhow.

He does look a bit like a murderer, doesn't he?

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3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?

 

In other books I read, Thomas More came across as a nicer,certainly more humane, person, sometimes even a bit of a martyr, whereas in this book he sort of comes across as a calculating, cold hearted, religious fanatic. Cromwell and More serve at opposing ends, with Cromwell backing the rise of Queen Anne, while More refusing to budge in his support for Queen Katherine which makes their relationship as difficult as could be. However Cromwell does his best to give More as much comfort as possible during his incarceration, and ample time and opportunities for redemption, while at the same time he also strives to let him keep as much of his pride as possible. I think, if not the best of friendships, their relationship showed respect.

 

On the other hand Cardinal Thomas Wolsey was, in fact, the father Cromwell never had. Cromwell loved and respected the cardinal, and served him faithfully till the end. Wolsey treated him like a beloved son at times, and helped him rise from a nobody to a respected lawyer, and eventually when Wolsey fell from the King's grace, replaced him as the King's trusted aide, and was the champion of 'His Great Matter'.

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LOL Maureen...yes, he does!  It was also mentioned by Cromwell that Holbein dressed him differently than he'd have himself, and I thought it interesting that the artist searched the house for the most impressive book he could find, not using the ones that were actually well worn from use.

 

*****

3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?

 

Cromwell's relationship with More was interesting.  I have always been a bit skeptical of the "holy" image projected by some historians.  I actually have a book on Beckett...came out last year, unread so far...def have to pull it now and read asap. :) /lightbulb goes off/ :) I've thought before that More was most lilely, um...how to put it...a bit dirtier, more vindictive and probably coming down on the side of the fence toward fanatic.  So, this rang true for me. 

 

Aside from the Anne issue, they totally disagreed on religion, with Cromwell coming down, actually, on the heretic side.  I mean, really!, the Bible in English!!  :eek:  :)  Some of the best parts, I thought, were the bits in the beginning.  In the hardback edition under At Austin Friars, page 32 Cromwell is talking about the differences between himself and More...

He can't imagine himself reading to his household; he's not, like Thomas More, some sort of failed priest, a frustrated preacher.  He never sees More--a star in another firmanent, who acknowleges him with a grim nod--without wanting to ask nim, what's wrong with you? Or what's wrong with me? Why does everything you know, and everything you've learned, confirm you in what you believed before?  Whereas in my case, what I grew up with, and what I thought I believed, is chipped away a little and a little, a fragment then a piece and then a piece more.  With every month that passes, the corners are knocked off the certainties of this world; and the next world too.  Show me where it says, in the Bible, "Purgatory." Show me where it says "relics, monks, nuns." Show me where it ways "Pope."

So, there were very basic differences in their outlook on religion and life in general.  Mantel's book alluded to a possible sexual relationship between More and....I think his daughter.  Do I have that right? 

 

Anyhow, regarding the relationship between Cromwell and Wolsey, I agree, it was a father/son relationship, probably at it's best.  There was true love and respect given on both sides. 

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3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?

 

I too agree that Cromwell's relationship with Wolsey was like a father & son; it was one of the things i admired about Cromwell his loyalty to Wolsley. Wolsey's habit of making up stories about Cromwell's past i also found quite funny. As for Cromwell & More, i'm not sure, Cromwell definitely comes across as having a more balanced view of religion where as More is exasperatingly single-minded. It seems unlikely that with them being rivals Cromwell would have been so accomodating to More in real life.

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3. What do you think about Cromwell's relationship with Thomas More? With Cardinal Thomas Wolsey?

 

My only knowledge of Thomas More came from the film A Man for All Seasons, in which he was portrayed as very saintly indeed, and a good husband too I think.  So I was quite surprised to find him portrayed so differently in Wolf Hall; he really seemed a very unpleasant character indeed.  The relationship between Cromwell and More did seem very difficult, and if Cromwell really was as forbearing with More as he seemed in the book then it would be miracle I think!

 

Like others, I saw the relationship between Cromwell and Wolsey as having a father/son aspect.  It was fascinating to read about Cromwell's rise from boy in Wolsey's service to the heights he reached.

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As noted on other threads, I've just finished the second one...Bring Up the Bodies.  I thought I'd share a bit from a bit on Thomas More and Cromwell's relationship from that one....it isn't a spoiler for the second book in any way. 

This is Cromwell speaking.......p.371 in the hardback.

....................Into his mind instead strays the picture of More on the scaffold, seen through the veil of rain his body, already dead, folding back neatly from the impact of the axe. The cardinal when he fell had no persecutor more relentless than Thomas More.  Yet, he thinks, I did not hate him, I exercised my skills to the utmost to persuade him to reconcile with the king.  And I thought I would win him, I really thought I would, for he was tenacious of the world, tenacious of his person, and had a good deal to live for. In the end he was his own murderer. He wrote and wrote and he talked and talked, then suddenly at a stroke he cancelled himself. If a ever a man came close to beheading himself, Thomas More was that man.

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Imagine how different history would have been, had Cromwell managed to persuade More to the King's case!  

 

 

So, there were very basic differences in their outlook on religion and life in general. Mantel's book alluded to a possible sexual relationship between More and....I think his daughter. Do I have that right?

 

Pontalba, there was a paragraph in particular when More's wife was talking about More and his daughter from a previous wife - and she did refer to a special relationship between her husband and his daughter - she sort of commented about how his daughter knew more of what undergarments More wore than she, his wife, did...

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4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

In Anne Boleyn, Cromwell found a key to a successful future. She is portrayed as a scheming and conniving person, who would go to great lengths to realise her dream - which was in no way trifling. Cromwell realised that as the King's desire for a male heir was getting stronger and more desperate, and Anne Boleyn was a strong ambitious person who could give him the necessary push to step on unchartered territory by pandering to his vanity and his lust, he had been dealt a fortunate hand, which he could use to his own advancement. Sometimes I got the feeling that he felt a kind of sorry for Anne, for in the scheme of things, she was after all only a means to an end, but that did not stop him from supporting her in her plans - he knew he was backing a winning horse

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Pontalba, there was a paragraph in particular when More's wife was talking about More and his daughter from a previous wife - and she did refer to a special relationship between her husband and his daughter - she sort of commented about how his daughter knew more of what undergarments More wore than she, his wife, did...

Ahhh, yes, that rings bells.  Now, that is downright creepy, and casts a whole 'nuther light on Sir Thomas More. 

He was so very self-righteous, and I felt looked forward to his martyred state.  Reveled in it in fact.

 

 

4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

First, I felt Anne was forced by her father into going after the King.  Perhaps her family would have been content with her being another of Henry's mistresses, but she decided she could do better than her sister, Mary.  By denying Henry intercourse (but apparently not much else) she finagled him into marriage.  He evidently wasn't a rapist, so the only way he could have her was to marry her.  What a sad kind of person, a King, that should be ruled by his sex. To bring all that ruination to all involved to bed a woman.

 

Cromwell saw how he could use both Henry and Anne, he played on her ambition and Henry's passion.  But I think Cromwell really did not want Anne to die, and if she'd agreed to retire to a convent she'd not have been executed.  She painted herself into a corner. She did not read Henry accurately, she thought she could still lead him around by the nose, or whichever body part one cares to contemplate. :D  She was obviously no student of the human male psyche. 

 

Why is it that some people just don't know when to quit? Anne was a stubborn, and ultimately foolish woman.  She had way too high an opinion of herself and could not admit when she was beaten.  Or wrong.  I don't know if she had affairs or not, I strongly suspect she did, but not indiscriminately.......it makes sense that she had relations with her brother....if she wanted a child to pass off as Henry's the child had to look either like a Boleyn or Henry.  Someone in the book mentioned that, and I can easily believe it.  I believe she was fully capable of that sort of thing, in service of her ambition.

Edited by pontalba
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4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

I thought that Cromwell tolerated Anne because she was Henry's woman & so that made her powerful he knew that he had to stay on the right side of her but i don't think he liked her. Anne was a bit like a spoilt child she exploited her power over Henry to the max but of course as we know her power was transitory.

 

On Saturday on CH4 there's a program on called Walking Through History with Tony Robinson about the Tudors & it mentions Thomas Cromwell in the info about it ....  reveals the extent of Thomas Cromwell's ruthless ambition. I think it would be interesting to see another take on Cromwell so i'm going to record it.

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On Saturday on CH4 there's a program on called Walking Through History with Tony Robinson about the Tudors & it mentions Thomas Cromwell in the info about it ....  reveals the extent of Thomas Cromwell's ruthless ambition. I think it would be interesting to see another take on Cromwell so i'm going to record it.

 

Thanks for that, Kidsmum, I have recorded it too! :)

 

4. What is your impression of Cromwell's feelings about Anne Boleyn? What do you think about her?

 

I felt that Cromwell found her interesting but, like Kidsmum, I felt he was wary of her due to her power and I didn't get the impression he liked her. 

 

The book certainly doesn't present her as a likeable person, but I found it surprising just how much the young women portrayed were regarded as currency by their families.  The idea that Henry's divorce meant that every married woman then had to worry about their position had never occurred to me, either.

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I'd like to see that program...wonder if it will at any time be available over here.  hmmmm

 

 

Darn, I went to their website, and it isn't available "in your area"...grrrr lol

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I found it surprising just how much the young women portrayed were regarded as currency by their families.  The idea that Henry's divorce meant that every married woman then had to worry about their position had never occurred to me, either.

 

Ooshie, that's true - children were a currency - the way the Bolyen's family treated Mary was shocking beyond belief.

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5. What do you think about the title - 'Wolf Hall'?

 

According to Wikipedia,

 

The title comes from the name of the Seymour family seat at Wolf Hall or Wulfhall in Wilshire; the title's allusion to the old Latin saying "Man is wolf to man" serves as a constant reminder of the dangerously opportunistic nature of the world through which Cromwell navigates. None of the action occurs at Wolf Hall.

 

I must admit that although this is a clever play on words, it's significance did not strike me as particularly important....

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6. In terms of the writing, a number of reviewers felt the difficulty of too many Thomases and too many he's - that Mantel didn't make the effort to help readers through the confusion. Do you agree? Did you find other difficulties in reading the work...or did you find her prose clear... and engaging? How else might you describe Mantel's writing? Q6 from cambridgelibraries.ca

 

I found this to be true - I filled the book with notes and bookmarks so that I could make head or tails of the he in the particular passage - but what Pontalba says is true, usually 'he ' refers to Cromwell - irrespective of who the sentence started about.  I believe Mantel could have made it easier on the reader - there were times where I had to read particular pages more than once so that I could sort everything out in my head.  I loved her dark humour thoroughout the book though, it made for an interesting slant on a very important period in history.

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