The Tenderness of Wolves by Stef Penney

[frankie]

(I'm very sorry to be late with this, but I've had problems with my Internet connection and was unable to start the thread earlier! )

 

 

Happy New Year 2013 everyone, I hope many of you have read the book and are eager to discuss it with the rest of us!

 

 

It is assumed that you have read the book before reading posts in this thread, as the discussion might give away crucial points, and the continuous use of spoiler tags might hinder fluent reading of posts.

 

 

The Tenderness of Wolves by Stef Penney

 

Blurb (from Amazon): 1867, Canada: as winter tightens its grip on the isolated settlement of Dove River, a man is brutally murdered and a 17-year old boy disappears. Tracks leaving the dead man's cabin head north towards the forest and the tundra beyond. In the wake of such violence, people are drawn to the township - journalists, Hudson's Bay Company men, trappers, traders - but do they want to solve the crime or exploit it? One-by-one the assembled searchers set out from Dove River, pursuing the tracks across a desolate landscape home only to wild animals, madmen and fugitives, variously seeking a murderer, a son, two sisters missing for 17 years, a Native American culture, and a fortune in stolen furs before the snows settle and cover the tracks of the past for good. In an astonishingly assured debut, Stef Penney deftly waves adventure, suspense, revelation and humour into a panoramic historical romance, an exhilarating thriller, a keen murder mystery and ultimately, with the sheer scope and quality of her storytelling, one of the books of the year.

 

 

 

Some basic questions to discuss, courtesy of BCF:

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

6- Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

 

*

 

Additional questions:

7. The title of the book: What did you think of it? And what relevance do you think it has to the book? (provided by bree)

[Ooshie]

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

 

There are a lot of very interesting characters in the book that we get to know quite a lot about, but I found it hard to like any of them and therefore to choose a favourite.

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

 

I thought the short chapter where Donald dies after being shot was beautifully written and very moving, that was definitely my favourite part of the book.

 

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

 

I very much enjoyed Stef Penney's style of writing in the book, her use of language and sardonically humourous turn of phrase, and I thought the different points of view added to the overall understanding of the story.

 

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

 

Yes, this is the only book I have read by her, although it is the second time I have read it. I do like her style of writing, and so would consider reading another.

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

 

I struggled with the fact that, despite the interesting storyline and enjoyable style of writing, I found the book unremittingly depressing. On both readings. In fact, I had found it so depressing the first time that I threw the book away (something I only do a couple of times a decade!) and had to buy it again for the Reading Circle.

 

6- Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

 

No, I didn't find it an enjoyable experience. As I say, i found it interesting and admired the writing very much, but I didn't enjoy it.

 

 

Edit: I should say that I often read books that are melancholy in tone or deal with depressing subjects. I'm not quite sure why this one has such a strong effect on me! Maybe other people's comments will help me sort out my feelings on it

Edited January 2, 2013 by Ooshie

[lauraloves]

Didnt want to read and run but this will be my next read

[bobblybear]

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

 

I don't know if I had a favourite character. I was intrigued by William Parker (I keep wanting to say Richard Parker, who is the tiger from Life of Pi ), amused by and admiring of Mrs. Ross, and I also liked Donald, although I initially thought him weak (as he thought of himself). I think he was the character we were most involved with and we almost always knew what was going on in his head. He was always thinking about things, wanting to do the right thing, but fearing he lacked the strength and courage. He was the most developed character and in a way, he was more of a central character than Mrs Ross.

 

Mrs Ross was a bit elusive. While I liked her strength and her determination, and the way she did things with minimal fuss, I found her a tad dull.

 

I thought Laurent Jammett was not a very nice person, for how he treated Francis, and he was probably my most disliked character (even though he was dead!).

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

 

I enjoyed all of it; though after reading Ooshie's comment I went back and re-read the chapter and it is very beautifully written, and very sad for him to be thinking about the life he could have had with Maria. I'll think on this a bit more as I'm sure more will come to mind.

 

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

 

I loved the descriptive writing. A lot of people complain that the writing and dialogue was too modern, but I never noticed. I was quite wrapped up in the story and I think she was very effective at describing the cold climate of Dove River and it's surrounds. I didn't give too much thought about the story being told in partly first person and partly third person. In fact I was quite a way through it, before I actively noticed and had to flip back a few chapters to double check.

 

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

 

Yes, first book I have read by her, and I will definitely read The Invisible Ones. I bought it as part of the 12 Days of Kindle sale so I'm pretty chuffed!

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

 

I don't understand the storyline of Line and Espen and why they were relevant. They didn't have any influence or effect on the more central characters, so they could easily have been omitted, unless to show the hardship of the land when they are attempting to reach Dove River? I also found Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker a bit hard to believe. That seemed to come out of nowhere, unless I missed something?

 

6- Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

 

Yes, hugely enjoyable for me, although it's not a positive book per se. I thought the ending was gloomy, with Mrs Ross just choosing to carry on with her normal life, instead of perhaps finding a better like with William Parker. But I also thought the ending was quite fitting. A 'happily ever after' ending would have seemed at odds with the rest of the story.

[Ooshie]

I don't understand the storyline of Line and Espen and why they were relevant. They didn't have any influence or effect on the more central characters, so they could easily have been omitted, unless to show the hardship of the land when they are attempting to reach Dove River? I also found Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker a bit hard to believe. That seemed to come out of nowhere, unless I missed something?

 

I totally agree with you about the Line/Espen storyline, bobblybear, I thought at the time that whole bit could have been left out. As the book wasn't overlong it didn't bother me too much, though. (Although, did it make a difference to where everyone was at the denouement? I can't quite remember. I will need to go and have a look!) I hadn't thought too deeply about Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker, I just had the vague thought in my mind that she felt starved of affection by her husband and the weeks of hardship and enforced companionship had led to that.

[frankie]

I want to first write down my own answers so as not to be influenced by your thoughts, I'll then read the other posts and comment!

 

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

 

This is rather tricky, I found all of the characters believable and there weren't many that left me totally cold. That's not to say that I either hated or loved everyone, there are grey areas in between, but I got a feel for most of them in one way or another or in between.

 

Then again, now that I think about it, I don't have a clear favorite. I really warmed up to Mrs Ross, I don't know if it's because she was one of the main characters and the story was in part told from her point-of-view... but I admired her for her courage. Which is in contrast to what she at times thought about herself. She at one point thought that she was over-analytical and wanted to be more like Ann Pretty, who was a real pioneer, not succumbing to troubling herself with how other people perceived her, but just trukking along, survivor-like in the cold of Canada.

 

I also liked William Parker, but I don't know if that's because I found his and Mrs Ross's dealings intriguing and blush-worthy.... I started to like Francis after I found about the true relationship between him and Laurent Jammet. I guess before that I'd thought he was just an angst-ridden young ingrate, but when more was discovered of him, I understood him better.

 

I disliked Stewart, of course, but the people who really rubbed me the wrong way were Espen and Line. Selfish, selfish, selfish! Greedy, naive, hedonistic people.

 

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

 

I liked the parts where Mrs Ross was slowly becoming attached to William Parker There was this part in the novel where she and Parker were in the tent for the night, very close to each other to keep warm, and then Parker woke her up to look at the wolf and the dogs. And what Mrs Ross made of the situation, all the feelings and memories it aroused in her.

 

I also liked when we were told what had really happened between Francis and Jammet. I have a weird thing for reading about the most unlikely people falling in love and getting together

 

My third favorite was when Mrs Ross's past and her mental illness was talked in more detail, and her stay in the mental asylum. That reminds me, I really disliked Dr Watson. I felt he was completely taking advantage of the doctor-patient confidentiality and his position.

 

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

 

I was worried I might struggle with the split narrative, but I wasn't in the end. I thought the writing was really great and especially considering this was Penney's debut novel.

 

 

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

 

Yes, this was my first by Penney, and I didn't know anything about her as an author before this book was chosen as the reading circle book for this month. I have confidence in her writing skills based on this novel, but I haven't yet looked into her second novel and what it is about, and I think it's a matter of whether the subject matter (the blurb) will appeal to me.

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

 

There was a part in the novel when I thought the story had slowed its pace and I found it to be dragging a bit, and this was when Mrs Ross, Parker and Moody had made it to the Hanover House. For a short while I was confused with Half Man and Nepanenees and thought they were the same person, but I'm glad that was sorted out in my head soon enough.

 

It also left me somewhat unsatisfied when it was obvious we were never going to know what happened to Amy Seton. In addition, I'm not sure in which ways the Line+Espen storyline served any purpose. Yes, Line told the search party where Francis was, but I'm not sure if those two were needed in any other way. For me there was already enough going on in the novel.

 

6- Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

 

It definitely was! A year or two ago I picked up this novel in the library, just by chance, and I thought it sounded interesting, and borrowed it, but I never got to actually reading it. I'm so happy this was chosen as the January RC book, I'm not sure if I would've gotten around to reading it otherwise, and that would've been a shame because I really enjoyed the novel. There was a lot to it. There were a few twists I didn't expect at all (for example the Francis/Laurent thing).

 

If I'd read this last year I would've given it 5/5, but I'd already decided I'm going to be a bit more harsh with my ratings this year, and so for this reason only I would rate it 4/5 now.

 

Edit: I've remembered another part of the novel I struggled with. It was when the younger Seton girl was found and his Dad came to see her. Okay, years had past, she had a whole new life, but she was really cold towards her father and it all seemed really odd. It was like she'd been brainwashed and her new 'people' didn't want her to have anything to with her past family and thus she was cold and distant. And why would the father let it go so easily? If I were him, I would've stayed there and tried to talk it through, I would've imposed myself upon them for days.

[frankie]

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

 

There are a lot of very interesting characters in the book that we get to know quite a lot about, but I found it hard to like any of them and therefore to choose a favourite.

 

I liked some of them, but I would agree in that I couldn't find a true favorite, someone who really stood out.

 

Did you dislike any of the characters?

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

 

I thought the short chapter where Donald dies after being shot was beautifully written and very moving, that was definitely my favourite part of the book.

 

It was beautiful, yes But I have to say, I was torn when he decided not to say anything about Maria! In a way it was unexpected that he started favoring her instead of Susannah as the story progressed, because it's such a typical thing, a character going for the beautiful one, but then again in a way it wasn't unexpected, because... Well I guess I just liked that twist And I sympathised with Maria, I always sympathise with the 'underdog' in cases like this, and I would've liked to know that in the end she would've found out...

 

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

 

I very much enjoyed Stef Penney's style of writing in the book, her use of language and sardonically humourous turn of phrase, and I thought the different points of view added to the overall understanding of the story.

 

Sardonically humorous turn of phrase, well put! I thought Penney excelled especially when writing from the point-of-view of Mrs Ross: she would think sad things but in such a self-deprecating way, if you will, that I couldn't help but laugh at times.

 

I struggled with the fact that, despite the interesting storyline and enjoyable style of writing, I found the book unremittingly depressing. On both readings. In fact, I had found it so depressing the first time that I threw the book away (something I only do a couple of times a decade!) and had to buy it again for the Reading Circle.

 

Oh, I'm sorry but that made me laugh I'm sorry you had to go and get a new copy for the circle

 

Edit: I should say that I often read books that are melancholy in tone or deal with depressing subjects. I'm not quite sure why this one has such a strong effect on me! Maybe other people's comments will help me sort out my feelings on it

 

I hope so, too, I would like to know why this has such a different effect on you from all the other depressing books

 

Didnt want to read and run but this will be my next read

 

Read and run No worries, we'll be here!

 

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

 

I don't know if I had a favourite character. I was intrigued by William Parker (I keep wanting to say Richard Parker, who is the tiger from Life of Pi ), amused by and admiring of Mrs. Ross, and I also liked Donald, although I initially thought him weak (as he thought of himself). I think he was the character we were most involved with and we almost always knew what was going on in his head. He was always thinking about things, wanting to do the right thing, but fearing he lacked the strength and courage. He was the most developed character and in a way, he was more of a central character than Mrs Ross.

 

That is interesting what you say about Donald, because I couldn't get a grasp on him. I mean I see why you would think that about him, that there was a lot about him in the story, and that he was central, but I think the other characters outstaged him for me at least.

 

I thought Laurent Jammett was not a very nice person, for how he treated Francis, and he was probably my most disliked character (even though he was dead!).

 

It was weird, the way he treated Francis, and I have no idea why he did the things he did... But for some odd reason I didn't dislike him. I suppose I have this feeling that there was a lot more to Jammet and it is only unfortunate that the book was as short/long as it was, otherwise Penney could've filled us in on what made him the way he is.

[frankie]

I was quite wrapped up in the story and I think she was very effective at describing the cold climate of Dove River and it's surrounds.

 

I agree! I actually noted down that there was a really beautiful and clever description of the climate on page 141, and I found it very real and to the point, having been outside in temperatures like -39 degrees Celsius at worst!:

 

"It is freezing: the coldest of the five days they have been following the trail. A wind screams down from the Arctic and scours their faces with hail. It makes Donald's eyes water, and the tears freeze on his cheeks, making them chapped and raw. Water from somewhere also freezes in his moustache, so he started wrapping his muffler across the lower part of his face, until it froze solid with the moisture from his breat, and he had to tear it painfully free before he suffocated. He is cold and exhausted even though Jacob has the lion's share of the load, since Donald cannot keep up if he carries half."

 

Now, I don't have a moustache, or at least I do not confess to having one, but it sounds all too familiar. What is most expressive of a bloody cold winter for me is when my eyelashes get wet and then freeze and then it's hard to open my eyes if I've closed them, as they seem to have frozen shut together!

 

 

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

 

Yes, first book I have read by her, and I will definitely read The Invisible Ones. I bought it as part of the 12 Days of Kindle sale so I'm pretty chuffed!

 

Very cool!

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with?

 

I don't understand the storyline of Line and Espen and why they were relevant. They didn't have any influence or effect on the more central characters, so they could easily have been omitted, unless to show the hardship of the land when they are attempting to reach Dove River?

 

I can't believe it, I wrote the exact same thing in my reply to the questions!

 

I also found Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker a bit hard to believe. That seemed to come out of nowhere, unless I missed something?

 

At first it did seem to come out of nowhere, and at first I thought I must be imagining things, but the further the story went, the more I started to feel it and sympathise with Mrs Ross. I guess, maybe she felt so deprived of any affection from her husband that she found love in Parker?

 

I totally agree with you about the Line/Espen storyline, bobblybear, I thought at the time that whole bit could have been left out. As the book wasn't overlong it didn't bother me too much, though. (Although, did it make a difference to where everyone was at the denouement? I can't quite remember. I will need to go and have a look!) I hadn't thought too deeply about Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker, I just had the vague thought in my mind that she felt starved of affection by her husband and the weeks of hardship and enforced companionship had led to that.

 

So funny you, Ooshie, should also think the same about the Line/Espen storyline. Yes, it had some sort of effect on the story in that Line told the rescue party where Francis was, but I was thinking that if they were following the tracks, wouldn't they have found Francis on their own, just like William Parker, Mrs Ross and Jacob did? And even if the snow had already fallen down and swept the tracks away, how come they got to the right area in the first place?

 

And like I just said to bobblybear, I also think that Mrs Ross was starved of affection, although you phrased it better =D

[bobblybear]

I hadn't thought too deeply about Mrs Ross falling in love with William Parker, I just had the vague thought in my mind that she felt starved of affection by her husband and the weeks of hardship and enforced companionship had led to that.

 

I'd never actually thought about it that way. I suppose that makes sense.

 

I really warmed up to Mrs Ross, I don't know if it's because she was one of the main characters and the story was in part told from her point-of-view... but I admired her for her courage.

 

I admired Mrs Ross, but I couldn't say I warmed to her. She was quite a stony, serious person, but her inner dialogue revealed the softer side in her thoughts for William Parker.

 

My third favorite was when Mrs Ross's past and her mental illness was talked in more detail, and her stay in the mental asylum. That reminds me, I really disliked Dr Watson. I felt he was completely taking advantage of the doctor-patient confidentiality and his position.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that bit! It was only mentioned in dispatches, wasn't it? Was it revealed why she spent time in the asylum? I have a feeling it was, but I can't remember (and I only finished the book a week or so ago ).

 

It also left me somewhat unsatisfied when it was obvious we were never going to know what happened to Amy Seton. In addition, I'm not sure in which ways the Line+Espen storyline served any purpose. Yes, Line told the search party where Francis was, but I'm not sure if those two were needed in any other way. For me there was already enough going on in the novel.

 

I might have a google to see if anyone has any theories about Line and Espen. They could have been missed out entirely and it wouldn't change the story.

 

I agree! I actually noted down that there was a really beautiful and clever description of the climate on page 141, and I found it very real and to the point, having been outside in temperatures like -39 degrees Celsius at worst!:

 

"It is freezing: the coldest of the five days they have been following the trail. A wind screams down from the Arctic and scours their faces with hail. It makes Donald's eyes water, and the tears freeze on his cheeks, making them chapped and raw. Water from somewhere also freezes in his moustache, so he started wrapping his muffler across the lower part of his face, until it froze solid with the moisture from his breat, and he had to tear it painfully free before he suffocated. He is cold and exhausted even though Jacob has the lion's share of the load, since Donald cannot keep up if he carries half."

 

Now, I don't have a moustache, or at least I do not confess to having one, but it sounds all too familiar. What is most expressive of a bloody cold winter for me is when my eyelashes get wet and then freeze and then it's hard to open my eyes if I've closed them, as they seem to have frozen shut together!

 

Ouch, that sounds painful. I'd never thought of that happening in such cold temperatures and I was wincing at some of those descriptions.

 

What did you all think of the ending between Mrs Ross and William Parker? I loved the description of how she felt looking at his smile: "A knife in my heart that I would not remove for all the world." That's so brilliant. I do wonder how authors can come up with such phrases, and how long it takes them to think of these things.

 

What was meant when he said: 'You have never told me your name.' and she replies back: 'You have used it often enough'. Is that Mrs Ross putting up a boundary, so that he can never become overly familiar with her? I'm not very good an analysing or reading into subliminal messages. English was my worst subject at school - odd for someone who loves books.

[Ooshie]

What was meant when he said: 'You have never told me your name.' and she replies back: 'You have used it often enough'. Is that Mrs Ross putting up a boundary, so that he can never become overly familiar with her? I'm not very good an analysing or reading into subliminal messages. English was my worst subject at school - odd for someone who loves books.

 

I had to read that bit twice myself; in the end I thought the same as you, that she was making a point of not giving him her first name and therefore deliberately keeping him at a distance.

[bobblybear]

Well I've just been googling the book, and Mrs Ross' name was revealed to be Lucie - the same name as one of William Parker's sled dogs. It's on p.170 of the paperback version (if you don't have it, let me know and I'll transcribe the section), but I find it a bit vague and wouldn't have picked up on it myself.

 

So I guess the end dialogue can have a double meaning of sorts?

[bobblybear]

Good grief, googling brings up all sorts of theories. One is that Mrs Ross is the long lost Amy Seton. She was placed in the asylum by her father, I guess after she was found (if she is indeed Amy).

[frankie]

I admired Mrs Ross, but I couldn't say I warmed to her. She was quite a stony, serious person, but her inner dialogue revealed the softer side in her thoughts for William Parker.

 

I guess my having to have dealt with depression myself and knowing about the cruelness of the inner dialogue helped a lot... I think I could relate to some of the things she had had to go through/was going through. I know I said she was strong, and I still think she is, but I also feel she has a more insecure, frail side to her and living with a husband who seems to mostly mind his own business and a son who is very detached, it's hard to be jolly good fun and personable. And I think that winters can be hard enough with the modern commodities, let alone having to cope with it in 1867 But that's what I got out of her, it's so interesting to see what other people think about her and other characters.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that bit! It was only mentioned in dispatches, wasn't it? Was it revealed why she spent time in the asylum? I have a feeling it was, but I can't remember (and I only finished the book a week or so ago ).

 

Yes, it was told in little bits here and there, and it was something that bothered me a lot: as far as I can remember, we were never told what caused her depression/mental issues in the first place, I know her Mum had her own issues but I will not be satisfied with a vague 'it's in the genes' -kind of explanation, which wasn't even given to us. It's so out there in the open! I can't remember why she was put/why she went to the asylum in the first place, and I don't think it was never explained how she was cured. I just remember that she was there, and the next thing we're told is that she's going to live with her husband. So vague!

 

I might have a google to see if anyone has any theories about Line and Espen. They could have been missed out entirely and it wouldn't change the story.

 

It'll also be really interesting to see if any of the others who join in on the conversations think the same way.

 

Ouch, that sounds painful. I'd never thought of that happening in such cold temperatures and I was wincing at some of those descriptions.

 

The eyelashes freezing is actually fun and in my opinion not painful, just a bit inconvenient But it's my favorite thing about the cold weather, symptoms-wise. The bits when some of the characters couldn't feel their hands was not fun, though, it's so painful when you start to get the feeling back, it's so prickly and hot and awful.

 

What did you all think of the ending between Mrs Ross and William Parker? I loved the description of how she felt looking at his smile: "A knife in my heart that I would not remove for all the world." That's so brilliant. I do wonder how authors can come up with such phrases, and how long it takes them to think of these things.

 

I also loved the way it was written. I didn't write any lines down, I just liked it overall. And like you, I have no idea how authors come up with that stuff. I can't really decide what I think about the ending: would I have been happier had Mrs Ross made some kind of a move to start a life with Parker, or was it better the way it was? I think they had something really special between them, but on the other hand my heart melted when Mr Ross found out that both his wife and son are alright and he was so happy about it. Maybe I wish that the Rosses could re-connect.

 

What was meant when he said: 'You have never told me your name.' and she replies back: 'You have used it often enough'. Is that Mrs Ross putting up a boundary, so that he can never become overly familiar with her? I'm not very good an analysing or reading into subliminal messages. English was my worst subject at school - odd for someone who loves books.

 

I can't remember where it was, but when Parkers dogs were discussed and the girl doggy was called Lucie, there was something... If my memory serves me, at that point Mrs Ross smiled and wondered whether Parker knows her name, and that she shares it with the dog. I'm sure someone else can explain it better! I'm gonna look if I can find the passage. But yes, I got the idea that Mrs Ross's name was also Lucie. Which is odd because Mr Ross called her 'Rhu' and it was a term of endearment. It's not like those two names sound alike...

[frankie]

Good grief, googling brings up all sorts of theories. One is that Mrs Ross is the long lost Amy Seton. She was placed in the asylum by her father, I guess after she was found (if she is indeed Amy).

 

What the hell's bells Where was this, do you have the link, please?

[Ooshie]

Ooooh dear! I was mildly confused by some bits of the book, but I'm beginning to wonder whether there was a whole other novel underneath that I didn't even notice...

[frankie]

Ooshie, if you're referring to the Lucie-deal, don't worry, it was rather vague and confusing to me, too! And if you're referring to the theory of Mrs Ross being Amy Seton... I wouldn't worry

 

Edit: Hm, hold on... am I in the dark here, do you both think it would be possible?

[bobblybear]

I can't remember where it was, but when Parkers dogs were discussed and the girl doggy was called Lucie, there was something... If my memory serves me, at that point Mrs Ross smiled and wondered whether Parker knows her name, and that she shares it with the dog. I'm sure someone else can explain it better! I'm gonna look if I can find the passage. But yes, I got the idea that Mrs Ross's name was also Lucie. Which is odd because Mr Ross called her 'Rhu' and it was a term of endearment. It's not like those two names sound alike...

 

Well spotted, as I never noticed the bit about the dog's name. I remembered the Rhu, and for a while thought her name was Ruth, but then figured I had it wrong.

 

What the hell's bells Where was this, do you have the link, please?

 

Here it is, if you scroll down to the comments at the bottom. I really wish I could have re-read the book with that in mind, so I could see if it's plausible or not. I'm still googling to see if there's anything else I can find.

 

Ooooh dear! I was mildly confused by some bits of the book, but I'm beginning to wonder whether there was a whole other novel underneath that I didn't even notice...

 

I'm glad you say that; people seem to come up with things that I never considered. Maybe I take things too much at face value. It is very interesting though, all these different ideas, isn't it?

[frankie]

Well spotted, as I never noticed the bit about the dog's name. I remembered the Rhu, and for a while thought her name was Ruth, but then figured I had it wrong.

 

Ruth never occurred to me, I only came up with 'rhubarb' and thought, 'surely not...?'

 

Here it is, if you scroll down to the comments at the bottom. I really wish I could have re-read the book with that in mind, so I could see if it's plausible or not. I'm still googling to see if there's anything else I can find.

 

Hm. The older Seton girl was 15 when she disappeared. And this was 15 or so years ago. So she would now be in her early thirties. And Francis was 17... although he was adopted, but I think he was about the same age as Olivia would've been had she survived. So as far as I can gather, biologically it would be impossible for Mrs Ross to be the older Seton girl (can't remember her name ).

 

I'm glad you say that; people seem to come up with things that I never considered. Maybe I take things too much at face value. It is very interesting though, all these different ideas, isn't it?

 

Very interesting indeed! The more I think about it, the more I start to question whether I was right initially when I thought 'that's a whole lotta croc'.

 

Hm. There's no mention of Mrs Ross's childhood, is there? So we don't know where she lived and what her parents were like, only that they died, I think, but those could've been the kidnapping/adopting parents. And she came to live in Dove River, hm, when was that? She said .... okay, it can't be. I started thinking she said somewhere that people name the places they move into after places back home (in Europe), or animals. And it says clearly on page 9 that 'My husband and I emigrated from the Highlands of Scotland a dozen years ago...'. Surely she couldn't have wandered off across the Atlantic after arguing with Cathy Sloan

 

I should work for Mythbusters.

[bobblybear]

You should work for Mythbusters, Frankie!

 

I've had a bit of a think about it and I don't think it's possible either, for the same reason you said - she's simply too old to be Amy. The older daughter was called Eve. I'm kind of disappointed as I think that would have added a whole new layer to the story. Aside from those couple of posts I haven't found anyone else mention that theory. There is a bit of a mystery about Mrs Ross though, or maybe she's just supposed to be so inaccessible.

 

....'Rhubarb'....that made me laugh.

[Ooshie]

....'Rhubarb'....that made me laugh.

 

Me, too! I thought I had remembered that they were of Scots origin, and had wondered whether Rhu was some sort of a Gaelic endearment, but the closest I have found is 'ruadh' for a browny-red colour. Can anybody remember what colour Mrs Ross's hair was meant to be?

 

I do find Mrs Ross a real enigma, all these little hints we are given without any more full explanations ever being given. The asylum, how she met her husband, the fact that she seems quite educated compared to many in the story...

 

I'm beginning to think I am going to have to reread the whole thing, paying more attention this time Seriously. What do you think, guys, third time lucky? Maybe this time I will enjoy the book rather than admire it???

[Kidsmum]

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

I liked quite a few of the characters, Mrs Ross, i admired the way she screwed her courage to the sticking post & went with Parker first to search for her son & then to find the murderer & so prove his innocence. William Parker though i'm not sure why as he didn't really have a voice in the story i suppose because he took Mrs Ross with him & he did seem to care for her at the end. Also Maria because she was intelligent & had much more depth to her character than her prettier sister Susannah. I did like Donald although he was a weak character & i was sorry when he was killed at the end & my heart went out to Francis when it described his rather torturous relationship with Laurent. I disliked Line very much i thought she was a selfish & devious person who thought more of her own needs than that of her children & indeed Espen's wife & children whom she persuaded him to abandon. Espen i despised for being weak & deserting first his family & then Line & her children.

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

I liked the whole book but the parts that stand out the most were when they were at the company post i felt there was a real tension to the story as i kept expecting something to happen as they got closer to the truth. Also at the end when Stewart turns up at the cabin , my heart was in my mouth not knowing who'd been shot & who was going to survive. The way Elisabeth Birds true identity was revealed was good as i wasn't expecting that at all.

 

3- Did you like the writing? What did you think of the way the story was told (partly from Mrs Ross's point of view, partly third person omniscient narrator?)

I liked the way the story was told with more than one person having a voice & i felt it gave the characters more depth. I also liked the way bits of the past were hinted at & only revealed gradually i thought this helped to keep the story interesting. I thought she captured the harsh conditions & the isolation of the different communities very well .

4- Was this the first book you've read by this author, has it encouraged you to read more? Here's a link to Penney's second novel The Invisible Ones.

 

Yes this was the first book i've read by Stef Penney & i would definitely read more as i enjoyed the book very much.

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with

I struggled a bit with the ending i finished it last night just before i went to bed & so spent a good few hours puzzling over it . At first i thought OMG is Mrs Ross really Amy Seton but i went back & re read some parts & realised it couldn't be as Mrs Ross was in an asylum in Scotland & only came to Canada with her husband. Then i kept thinking about how she said Parker had said her name often but couldn't think of anyone he'd mentioned a lot then it came to me she must be called Lucie like his dog but that seems a bit silly so unless i'm being a bit thick & have totally missed the point i don't know what the ending means.Also the bone tablet seemed to be a bit of a red herring in the story, i thought all would be revealed at the end but it wasn't the reason for Laurent 's murder so wasn't of any real significance or again maybe i'm missing something.

6- Overall, was reading the book an enjoyable experience?

I really enjoyed the book & am so glad it was my first read of the year .

[frankie]

I've had a bit of a think about it and I don't think it's possible either, for the same reason you said - she's simply too old to be Amy. The older daughter was called Eve. I'm kind of disappointed as I think that would have added a whole new layer to the story. Aside from those couple of posts I haven't found anyone else mention that theory. There is a bit of a mystery about Mrs Ross though, or maybe she's just supposed to be so inaccessible.

 

I agree, there are a lot of question marks with Mrs Ross... Sometimes it's good to leave some things open for the reader to make their own mind up, but I think that with Mrs Ross I would've definitely wanted to know more. The more I think about the novel, the more I find there are things that weren't explained and I'm beginning to think this wasn't as well written, or at least as well organized novel as I initially thought.

 

I wouldn't have liked it if it had turned out Mrs Ross was Amy, because I wasn't expecting to find even one of the Seton girls alive: I thought we would never know what happened to them when I was reading the book because I thought the Jammet storyline was the main mystery. To have discovered one of the Seton girls was lucky enough in my opinion. I mean I wouldn't have at all minded if they'd discovered what happened to the other girl, too, but finding her alive and finding it was one of the main characters in the novel would've been pushing the envelope too far, at least for me.

 

 

I thought I had remembered that they were of Scots origin, and had wondered whether Rhu was some sort of a Gaelic endearment, but the closest I have found is 'ruadh' for a browny-red colour. Can anybody remember what colour Mrs Ross's hair was meant to be?

 

I can't remember, unfortunately... But that's an interesting theory! I also thought maybe Rhu didn't have anything to do with her real name but was a particular term of endearment, regarding something in their past, whether it be in Scotland or the States. I think I'm going to google to see if I could find anything on that.

 

I think it's rather telling of the novel and that we've liked it, when you two have been googling for stuff and want to work on finding more things out about the novel, I appreciate it!

 

 

I do find Mrs Ross a real enigma, all these little hints we are given without any more full explanations ever being given. The asylum, how she met her husband, the fact that she seems quite educated compared to many in the story...

 

I'm really bothered we know nothing about how she met her husband!

 

I also thought about her being educated, and being depressed. I go back to the thing I said about Mrs Ross before: she found her own inner dialogue exhausting, hated overanalysing things and wanted to be more like Ann Pretty, who she thought only went ahead and made the best of her living situations, without thinking too hard on anything and without bothering herself about what other people thought about her. 'Ignorance is bliss'. And we have a Finnish saying that could be translated as 'knowledge increases pain/mysery'. It made me think about the connection of education between depression, but in a general level... Oh I don't know where I'm going with this.

 

I'm beginning to think I am going to have to reread the whole thing, paying more attention this time Seriously. What do you think, guys, third time lucky? Maybe this time I will enjoy the book rather than admire it???

 

Well if you're up for it, maybe you could try! I just hope you didn't get rid of the copy, again, for getting sad and depressed by it, and now have to buy a third copy

 

1- Who was your favourite character? Were there any characters whom you disliked?

I liked quite a few of the characters, Mrs Ross, i admired the way she screwed her courage to the sticking post & went with Parker first to search for her son & then to find the murderer & so prove his innocence. William Parker though i'm not sure why as he didn't really have a voice in the story i suppose because he took Mrs Ross with him & he did seem to care for her at the end. Also Maria because she was intelligent & had much more depth to her character than her prettier sister Susannah. I did like Donald although he was a weak character & i was sorry when he was killed at the end & my heart went out to Francis when it described his rather torturous relationship with Laurent. I disliked Line very much i thought she was a selfish & devious person who thought more of her own needs than that of her children & indeed Espen's wife & children whom she persuaded him to abandon. Espen i despised for being weak & deserting first his family & then Line & her children.

 

Wow, we had very similar likes and dislikes! Although for me Donald was a bit of a mystery and not as central to the story as he seems to have been for you others.

 

I'm still outraged by Line and Espen, they were so selfish and despicable

 

2- Was there a particular part you enjoyed more than the rest?

I liked the whole book but the parts that stand out the most were when they were at the company post i felt there was a real tension to the story as i kept expecting something to happen as they got closer to the truth. Also at the end when Stewart turns up at the cabin , my heart was in my mouth not knowing who'd been shot & who was going to survive. The way Elisabeth Birds true identity was revealed was good as i wasn't expecting that at all.

 

I wasn't keen on the company post part of the book, for me the story seemed to drag a bit at that point, but I have to agree with you that I really felt the tension increase in that part. It was getting really creepy! It made me think of Jane Eyre and maybe The Woman in Black and other that type of books with a very chilling atmosphere.

 

5- Were there any parts/ideas you struggled with

I struggled a bit with the ending i finished it last night just before i went to bed & so spent a good few hours puzzling over it . At first i thought OMG is Mrs Ross really Amy Seton but i went back & re read some parts & realised it couldn't be as Mrs Ross was in an asylum in Scotland & only came to Canada with her husband. Then i kept thinking about how she said Parker had said her name often but couldn't think of anyone he'd mentioned a lot then it came to me she must be called Lucie like his dog but that seems a bit silly so unless i'm being a bit thick & have totally missed the point i don't know what the ending means.

 

If you read the earlier posts, you will see that these two things have been perplexing us, too

 

Also the bone tablet seemed to be a bit of a red herring in the story, i thought all would be revealed at the end but it wasn't the reason for Laurent 's murder so wasn't of any real significance or again maybe i'm missing something.

 

I had forgot about this! I'm happy you brought it up, I also thought such focus was placed on the bone tablet and yet in the end there was no real mystery to it. I thought there would be a whole lot more to it in the end.

[Ooshie]

I think Espen has to be my most disliked person in the whole story. Leaving his wife and children? Not nice at all. Leaving Line and her children in the forest to die??? Utterly despicable.

 

I do really want to read it again. But I just can't make myself! I think I will just console myself with the fact that we all seem a bit confused by the book, no matter how much we enjoyed it. (Oh, and the depressed feeling it gives me is wearing off, so I am liking it a bit more now as well as admiring it!)

[frankie]

I think Espen has to be my most disliked person in the whole story. Leaving his wife and children? Not nice at all. Leaving Line and her children in the forest to die??? Utterly despicable.

 

I agree whole heartedly. I honestly couldn't believe he would leave Line and the kids behind, as he was first against leaving the other horse behind, whereas Line was the one who wanted to move on without it. And on top of everything, Espen first said back at the whatstheplacesname that he'd left Line and the kids at some village. He wasn't even man enough to tell what had really happened, at first! Such a self-centered, cowardish worm!

 

I do really want to read it again. But I just can't make myself! I think I will just console myself with the fact that we all seem a bit confused by the book, no matter how much we enjoyed it. (Oh, and the depressed feeling it gives me is wearing off, so I am liking it a bit more now as well as admiring it!)

 

If you feel you would have to make yourself read it, you wouldn't probably enjoy it and you would be left with not liking the book as much as you do now, and it might leave you with a nasty after taste of the reading circle in whole! I'm happy the book's not bumming you out as much anymore!

[bobblybear]

I think Espen has to be my most disliked person in the whole story. Leaving his wife and children? Not nice at all. Leaving Line and her children in the forest to die??? Utterly despicable.

 

I agree, he was a selfish weak-minded individual. And he didn't even get his comeuppance in the end.

 

I do really want to read it again. But I just can't make myself! I think I will just console myself with the fact that we all seem a bit confused by the book, no matter how much we enjoyed it. (Oh, and the depressed feeling it gives me is wearing off, so I am liking it a bit more now as well as admiring it!)

 

I can't read it again either as it would be the third time for me as well. Maybe in several years I'll re-read it but by then I'll probably have forgotten the story and what to look for.