Maureen

9. There is a sequel to this book, called Ben in the World. Will you be reading it? What about more books by Doris Lessing? Yes!! I had been meaning to buy this book, but a good friend send me a copy today. I really want to read it in the hope of getting to know Ben a bit more. I feel sorry for this kid, and think he was dealt a bad hand in life. (him and his family) I will also read more books by DL - she really managed to pack a controversial story in 154 pages.

8. Who was your favorite/least favorite character? Why? I think the best character of all is Dorothy. She was always level headed, mature, helped out a lot, tried to give advise without being overbearing. I think she did the best she could do in the circumstances, and was very supportive, even to the point of putting her own life on hold. I don't like David at all. I have a problem with all of his decisions, to me he was always an immature selfish person who always tried to put his own interest first. I am also not overly fond of Ben - I really cannot understand him, possibly because we never get to hear about his point of view.

Yes Ooshie, that is another possibility. A real lose/lose situation. Although Harriet was an irrisponsable parent with her earlier decisions, she was not a bad person, and I think the guilt would have been a heavy burden to bear.

7. How do you feel about Harriet's decision to return for Ben? This is really difficult to answer. On the one hand I can fully sympathise with Harriet for returning for Ben. As his mother it was her duty to see that he is cared for and is living a decent life. I believe if she had found out that he was leading a decent life, she would have left him there, either for longer or perhaps indefinately. However she could not abandon him once she saw the condition he was in, and her decision to get him back ultimately cost her her marriage and her family - and even her house. In fact it cost her 'The Dream'. I felt sorry for the other children, because their quality of life deteriorated because of Ben. Ultimately they also paid the price - they lost their mother, then the whole family unit crumbled down. It is really difficult to decide what would have been the best decision, as there did not seem to be any alternative care for Ben, so perhaps Harriet is justified in chosing what to her seems to be the lesser of two evils?

I do think that Harriet had feelings for Ben, and perhaps tried to do right by him up to a point. However she had little if any support from the other family members especially her husband. At one time, when they were discussing taking Ben to the institution, and she sort of came to the conclusion that he is not expected to live long there, she told David 'He's a little child', 'He's our child', to which David replied, 'No he's not', 'He certainly isn't mine'.

6. Ben’s first words were ‘I want cake’. What do you make of that? This is something, which in my eyes, really sets Ben apart from other kids. I makes me wonder why he never tried to speak before he could form a whole sentence. Usually kids start with the nouns - another kid would just say ‘cake’ and perhaps point to the cake if it was available. I cannot come to a conclusion why Ben did not bother to try speaking at all before he could form a whole sentence.

That's a good point Vodkafan. When Ben grew up and was raping and stealing, Harriet did not even try to talk to Ben. She chose to take the easy way out - although his father took an even easier way out, because he did not even think about Ben any more - let alone what he was up to.

Yes but when children are doing something wrong, which to them is not wrong, they wouldn't try to hide it would they? Perhaps the first time your dog did this, he did it without bothering to see if you are there or not? (As for him it was a perfectly normal thing to do).However, in Ben's case, killing both the cat and the dog happened when no one was around. I don't know - perhaps because I always saw Ben as a boy with severe behaviour and other problems, rather than a Neanderthal, that I find it rather difficult to accept that he did not know he was doing anything wrong. If on the other hand Ben was a Neanderthal, then all rules of normal behaviour are null and void, and whatever he did cannot be judged by normal people who are applying normal standards.

Not at all Vodkafan. That is what makes this interesting! I really really appreciate people giving their point of view, especially when it is different to mine.

Hmmm good point Ooshie. That makes it more difficult then Let's say to him the dog and the cat were prey. But what about Amy? Would he see her as prey as well?

I don't think so because if for him the dog was some sort of prey, he would then try to eat it wouldn't he? If he killed the dog because of a sort of a survival instinct, it would be either because the dog was posing some sort of threat - which was not the case because this was a docile pet, or else to satisfy hunger, which was not the case either - Ben did not try to eat it. Also he did not kill the dog in front of everyone else - as would be the case if this was not pre-meditated. He knew he was doing something wrong, so he tried to hide his deed.

That may be so, but when someone is called a Neanderthal, I do not imagine an intelligent planner somehow...more someone who acts on instinct.....and I believe our ability to rationalise and not give in to instict is a show of our intelligence and evolution.

That's really interesting. Reading the book, I saw Ben as a child with a serious problem, but I never actually harboured the idea of a real Neanderthal. I saw Ben a cruel in his behaviour- in his treatment of the house pets for example. That would jar with my idea of a Neanderthal somewhat - when I think of a Neanderthal I imagine a slow, clumsy, uncalculating being, not a cunning cruel child who no one can understand. Somehow I never got the message that Ben is slow or stupid, as the idea of a Neanderthal would suggest.

Harriet had a very difficult decision to make. If I were in her shoes I would definately have a problem with leaving my son to die in an institution somewhere, where no one knows him or cares about him. On the other hand I would have a problem with Ben effecting the other children, especially Paul, the way he did, not to mention the strain on my marriage. I think this puts Harriet between a rock and a very hard place.

It's true, all marriages are an experiment, however in my opinion, both David and Harriet saw in each other a small similarity and that was the basis of their union. They felt different to their circle of aquantancies at work and in their community, and decided to get married without first getting to know each other well. Sometimes going through a tough experience can make a relationship....or break it. In this case the relationship suffered - perhaps because it did not have a solid foundation.

5. What are your feelings about Ben? One thing that I was hoping to get an answer to was what wrong with Ben. We are told that he looked different, was very strong, was hungry all the time. He is continually described as a Neanderthal, a throwback to earlier times, a troll and a goblin. He is described in a number of colours - his eyes were yellow green, his body was yellow, his face was yellowish white when he cried. His head was oddly shaped, and he had no social skills at all. Sometimes the descriptions seem to be some sort of Cephalic disorders, plus a severe case of autism, plus a bad case of ADHD, plus destructive behaviour and a streak of cruelty. We are told that he killed a family dog when he was just a few months old - which is really difficult to believe, and the family cat when he was slightly older. When he started to speak, he did so in a sort of robotic whole sentences, not like normal kids do. He loves no one in his family and no one loves him. At the age of three or so his mother started to leave him with John, a youth she employed to help in the garden and later as a sort of carer for Ben. This is Ben’s first connection with a human being.

I'm sorry to hear that Ooshie - wishing your Mum a speedy recovery and hope your tooth is not giving you any more grief. I think that Harriet's decision to bring back Ben was influenced by her feelings of guilt over his abandonment. It is difficult to take the best decision in that situation, but I think they should have tried to find alternate care, perhaps a day care for troubled children, or some sort of therapy would have worked out better. Some would argue that that is what she did with the motorcycle gang - perhaps as that was the only option available?

Hey guys? Anyone else want to comment?

4. What do you think about David and Harriet's marriage? I think that although on the outside everything seemed hunky-dory, these two people did not have a healthy relationship with each other. Both wanted a partner who could help them fulfil their own personal agenda, and they found this in each other. However I see their union as cold and calculating. David just wanted a wife and a mother to a houseful of his children. Harriet wanted a large family and a husband who could bring home the bacon and give her the idyllic life she pictured during her teenage years. In her third month, Harriet started to feel rejected by David, and blamed the foetus. David felt she was not keeping to the rules of their relationship - which says a lot about their marriage. Ben’s birth affected this arrangement of theirs very much. Their feelings towards each other changed and their actions and outlook to life took a dark turn.

I kept thinking about this book and could not settle into another book straight away. I kept going over the whole story again and again in my mind.

I will be reading that

That's true Ooshie, and that is what I love about these circles - the different facets of the story, each one as percieved by a different individual. Regarding Ben, I do think he was emotionally handicapped in some way or another...so I think Harriet gave birth to a handicapped child. I would love to know what was really really wrong with him....

3. What do you think about Harriet as a mother and David as a father? David has two sets of parents, and he makes sure he is as different from them as possible. He sets out to cancel out both sets’ deficiencies as he saw them. He does not seem to feel love or bonding with any set, and this perhaps sets the foundation stone for his ‘Dream’. He also has no real relationship with his sister, whose character and outlook are totally different to his. He has no friends to speak of, and spends much of his childhood in his room - the one at his mother’s house. When he gets older this pattern is still there - he has no close friends (at least any that are mentioned in the story) or even any casual friends who he hangs out with. In his role as a father however, he did not succeed where his own father did - he could not provide for his family, and where his mother did - being practical and knowing what his children needed. Overall I do not think he had much of a relationship with all of his offspring, he spent a lot of time at work, or commuting to and from work, leaving him with little time to play with or enjoy his kids. Harriet’s childhood is not really discussed, we are told that her mother is happy with her life, and that this presumably assured Harriet that family life is what she wants. She embarks on this venture with a vengeance - she became pregnant on the day that they acquired their house. Motherhood is not difficult for Harriet, as long as she has her mother’s help, her father-in-law’s financial support, David’s love and approval and a healthy, perfect baby. She argues that having a large number of kids is only alien to people in this part of the world, that people in India or Egypt all have a large number of kids, and sees this as a right - hers and David‘s. Her immaturity does not let her realise that the number of kids she wants to have will have a direct impact on the quality of life of all the family. Bringing more kids into the world because she thinks it is her right is both selfish and cruel. All of her pregnancies were difficult, but not as much as her fifth pregnancy. This pregnancy, for starters, was not unconsciously planned as the others were. From the very beginning a cloud loomed on their otherwise perfect horizon. This foetus Harriet labelled as different and not normal, a label which stuck. In her third month, Harriet started to feel rejected by David, and blamed the foetus. When she was five months along she went to her doctor to get a confirmation that her foetus was not normal, perhaps to assuage the way she was feeling about it. She used to say that she distrusted the pill as a form of contraceptive, but had no qualms at all about taking tranquillizers while she was pregnant, even to the point when she increased the dose beyond which must have deemed safe by her doctor. This is another thing she did not think much about - how much did these drugs contribute to the way Ben is? She started to think of the foetus as the enemy within her, thinking of phantoms and chimeras, not exactly loving and caring thoughts of a mother-to-be. Her mental image of the creature inside her was of a creature not of this world, or at least, certainly not of this time. Later on, when baby Ben was born, she had really difficult decisions to make. Her time with Ben was given at the other children’s expense - especially Paul, who did not have much nurturing from his mother. Should she give Ben up? She could not do that - when David put him in an institution, her conscience would not let her rest and she brought him back home, a decision which ultimately cost her her family. The way Harriet thought was not logical at all. Her fifth pregnancy was different than the others, hence her child must be different, a changeling, a beast. Harriet also voiced the thoughts that Amy was a punishment to her sister and her brother-in-law, because their marriage was failing, and that Ben was their punishment because they dared to want it all. Not all mothers love their children, and Harriet, although she loved her other children, simply did not have the same connection with Ben as with the others, a fact that she felt guilty for, and ultimately she traded her love and relationship with the others to Ben‘s presence in their lives, as a sort of atonement. 　

Re 2 - Sometimes when you think about it, having children is a rather selfish decsion. When a couple decides to have a baby, it is always something they want for themselves - you never sort of think - ok, let's have a baby - to give a life to someone else...you always say we want a baby (obviously for ourselves ). I know it is a strange statement to make, but if you think about it, it is true isn't it?